Has the battle of Neva in 1240 had place in reality?

[Edelward]

Even prince name became Alexander Nevsky yet..
The second name was given after his physical death in accordance with First Novgorod chronicle(only source) which was written 100 years later then battle it tries to describe.
Strangely everybody ,including CA,believes in it while Swedish historical science denies it.
Close examination of chronicle reveals many ...incorrect data.
For example it says that Swedish army had Finns,Norwegians and Tavastians(a Finnish tribe).
Yet in 1240 Sweden was on the edge of war with Norway and was crusading against pagan Tavastians-having war with them(with the letter of the Pope behind that).
While in the time of chronicle Tavastians were already in Swedish Kingdom
Then chronicle says about Swedish Bishop being killed while the death of person of such importance wouldn't go unnoticed by Swedish chronicles
So could the chronicle be a ...propaganda legend ?
For in this case the data behind the battle of Ice has to be also ...re-evaluated
And how Alexander should be called then: Alexander not-sure Nevsky ?Or simply Rurik smth

[Russ Mitchell]

Two basic problems: Neva crushes the Sword Brethren. If not a large battle, why were they so suddenly demolished?

Two... we know that the later Muscovite bookmen lie in order to make Novgorod->Moscow look more significant than either Kiev or Chernigov, where both were actually at least as important, and that Moscow was far from continuously and bravely resisting the Mongols for several hundred years... since they were in fact often a Mongol tributary, and at least twice got their butts crushed for daring to rebel. BUT, are the Swedish sources in fact any better? Which sources are we specifically critiquing, and what are their purposes?

[Edelward]

I meant the battle in which Alexander has attacked Swedish embarking troops on river Neva- according to First Novgorod chronicle summer 1240
Swedish sources have nothing to say about that accept of that it didn't have place
Yeah and bishop Thomas died in Visby,Gotland in 1245,not on Nevan shores as chronicle says
Role of Muscovy - they genocided Novgorod in 15Th
they also destroyed Ukrainian Cossacks in 18Th
and then started to make legends about evil westerners

[Russ Mitchell]

Ah, piffle, I had a "brain fart." But still, we can't get anywhere until and unless you describe specific historical sources. We can't argue specifics with generalities.

[Edelward]

There is only one source 'First Novgorod chronicle' wrote in 14Th century

[Russ Mitchell]

And does that chronicle have a historiography? Who has written on it, and where is it available? If the chronicler got a name wrong, or modified something to make a point, that may be achievable... but if you want to show that a battle literally hasn't happened, then there should be something on the Swedish side saying where those guys happened to be... otherwise we can't say anything,hardly even speculate.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Great another historian with a grudge embarks on historicle revisionism (where are the fracking russians?)

[Edelward]

Grudge-bearer : Never stand between an axeman and his revenge !

[Watchman]

As for Swedish sources, I understand they're godawfully scarce concerning that period. See, for example, the First Swedish Crusade - I understand the scholars up here rather suspect the Swedes just took over the bits of Finland that were worth something rather less dramatically, and later during dynastic power struggles in Sweden the descendants of the king of the time embellished the whole deal into a glorious Crusade thingy to earn some street cred. See the Wiki entry for Eric's Chronicle and the Second Swedish Crusade for some more on that.

What is more or less certain that the kingdom of Sweden had quite a bit of ambitions around the Baltic, and had by hook or by crook (and sometimes by sword) been expanding along the eastwards trade routes of the Finnish coastline, sprinkled with occasional clashes with the pagans of the interior who didn't always quite appreciate the missionaries and/or the king's tax collectors (gee, big surprise). Novgorod was in much of the same business except in the opposite direction, so it's hardly surprising these two ended up butting heads over turf once their border patrols began running into each other.

The Wiki entry on the Battle of the Neva seems to have a bit of credible-sounding theories in this direction. Given that around the time it was de rigeur to try to grab whatever you could from your neighbour by force if at all possible, the Swedes and Novgorodians doubtless fought often enough; if the 1240 clash was anything more than yet another such opportunistic border skirmish is, however, anyone's guess.

[Edelward]

Did you ever see mentioning about Swedes taking Daneguld from Novgorod ?
No,guees you didn.t .And why- because everybody roams around with propaganda legends 'Made in Russia' and ...don't spend time studying eventual history
Heck
Americans after WW2 had to rely on Nazies info because their Soviet allies could provide them only with ...crap

And you Watchman don't need this complicated verbosity ,say laconicaly - that there're no Swedish mentionings of this 'event'.Not to mention yer sarcasm I can ask you what is better scarse chronicle from eventual period time-frame or story made more then hundred years after event it tries to describe ,not mentioning that Novgorod is poor chronicled also

[Panzerbear]

Did you ever see mentioning about Swedes taking Daneguld from Novgorod ?
No,guees you didn.t .And why- because everybody roams around with propaganda legend 'Made in Russia' and ...don't spend time studying evental history

Facts:

Swedes dont have this battle in their sources.
Russians do have this battle in their sources.

That is pretty much the end of it. Given the obvious circumstances and the fact that both main characters were of NOBILE origin, I am sure as hell that Swedes prefered not to bring up this crushing defeat in annals of Swedish history, while the Russian sources glorified its main character beyond any belief...

even if we polish away all the glorification part of it, we will still likely to conclude that the battle indeed took place and that Swedes were indeed defeated.

Dammit
Americans after WW2 had to rely on Nazies info because their Soviet allies could provide them only with ...crap

Americans and Soviets had EXTENSIVE evidence of being right on their perspective (history is like politics frozen in time - both sides are mostly correct from their perspective, but tend to bash each other for no good reason). I do not understand why are you trying to pull Soviet allies into a historical battle that took place many canturies before even creation of unified Russian state.

again, just because Swedes chose to forget about this battle, it doesnt mean that it never existed. Alexander Nevsky, after all, won many battles. he did not need any fake glorification, he was a great military commander. if he wasnt Nevsky, then he would have just as easily been Chudsky .

[Edelward]

Fact Russian source has too many incorrect statements and has to be dismiised as an obvious ...
Fact Swedish sources were never accused in one case of lying and Russian sorces have been lying in most of known cases
So ...your ideas?

[Watchman]

The Swedes first wrote about the whole period about a century later (that we know of anyway); what they chose to include being naturally politcally motivated, as chronicling now usually was. Whether 1240 was just another border skirmish or an embarassing rout for them, there's not much reason they'd have included it.

The Russian chroniclers had different political realities to heed.

Did you ever see mentioning about Swedes taking Daneguld from Novgorod ?

Uh - isn't that a term normally used in the context of Western Europe ? The Swedes rarely ventured that way; that was more Danish and Norwegian turf, while they often sailed the Russian rivers.

And AFAIK around the first time the Swedes got an army into Novgorod proper was like early 1600s anyway...

[Panzerbear]

Edelward, please elaborate. I love discussing Russian history (especially medieval, Novgorod republic, etc).

So, you actualy claim that Alexander Nevsky did not attack the Swedes next to Neva river on 15th of July of 1240??? What leads you to believe that countless historic accounts are a LIE? I warn you to please pick your words carefully because Alexander has been carefully studied by many historians of his and other generations. after all, he wasnt some kind of hero out of nowhere, he was THE KNJAZ (i.e. ruler) or Novgorod, and later of Kiev and later of Vladimir.

I can even show you a scheme of that battle.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Well hes either someone who really dosn't like russia, or else hes trying to make a quick buck.

[Edelward]

Check Wiki there is only one account-first Novgorodian chronicle .Bloody heck -you couldn't read texts above
Please,don't make me to repeat all the same
Before I haven't turned into berserker's fury

[Kiljan Arslan]

Watchmen so your saying that mothers would tell their children "eat your food, or the Seedes will get you."

[Russ Mitchell]

Watchmen so your saying that mothers would tell their children "eat your food, or the Seedes will get you."

Actually, the Swedes were known for some truly outrageous barbarisms on their campaign... the description of any one of which would probably get me tossed off this forum.

Ask an early-modern guy to explain "Swedish drink" to you sometime. But not right after you've eaten.

[Nissedruva]

Well if we go back to the battle of Neva the famous swedish historian Dick Harrison writes about it in his good and interesting book "Gud vill det!-nordiska korsfarare under medeltiden" or "Deus vult!-nordic crusaders during the middle ages".
He states the there are very few sources of the battle were the novogrod chronicle writen in the 1300s is the main one . Also he states the facts that Edelward has already shown about the bishop being killed during the time and the possible presence of norwigean troops is false. Acording to Harrison the "battle" was problably just a skirmish that ended a minor swedish raid in the area. No effects of the "battle" for swedish part was seen.

[Valus]

The battle of Neva has most likely been fought hovewer due to propaganda the consequences of this engagement are exagirated (sp?) like most medieval battles are..
Regarding the Sword Brethrens dissaperance from the Batlic Scene; I thought they were merged with The Teutonic Order as they could not compete with the financial and millitary strength of said order and did not dissapear because they were crushed in battle?