Burning Water

[Jaquil]

""ERIE, Pa. - An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.

John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.

The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.

The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.

The discovery is "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years," Roy said.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Roy said. "Seeing it burn gives me the chills."

Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense to try to obtain research funding.

The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen — which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit — would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Roy said. "The potential is huge." ""

So what do you guys think of this: another pipe dream or maybe the real deal?

P.S. How do you quote a story?

[Gary88]

if this is true, being able to release hydrogen from water...thats ****ing incredible. however you have to use radio frequencies which require energy to generate so this may be completely impractical if its true

[Ulyaoth]

But if the Hydrogen just burns onced released anyway, what's the point?

[Simetrical]

When you burn the hydrogen, by definition (burning being a form of oxidation), it bonds with oxygen to form, yes, water. So thermodynamics would suggest this can only be energy-negative, i.e., it needs to consume more energy than it produces for it to be possible. That energy presumably comes from the RF field. Of course, things that are energy-negative can still be useful: batteries take more energy to charge than they ever release, for instance. But this isn't going to replace fossil or nuclear fuels, say, which are used specifically because they're energy-positive.

But if the Hydrogen just burns onced released anyway, what's the point?

The entire point of power generation is to burn stuff, or at least heat stuff up. This is used to boil something, that passes through turbines, that spins magnets, which generates electricity by induction. So instead of burning gasoline, the idea goes, you'd burn water.

[Gary88]

well it says it would burn not that it lights spontaneously. also that would still have uses, not as great as you would hope but still could be utilised

[Ummon]

Not necessarily. There are many paradoxical properties of chemical compounds. It all depends on the energy landscape of reactions. He may have found a way to change it from one reaction to the other.

Anyway, it is more likely that the process can be used for carrying energy than producing it. A lot more, for sure.

[ajm317]

Like Simetrical I have my doubts that this will prove to solve the worlds energy problems. It's an interesting oddity though.

Personally I can't see it, for example, powering a car. Fuel cells, for example, work on a similar principle, extract hydrogen from water (actually they don't usually get it from water, but that's beside the point) and then turn it back into water to power your car. Fuel cells however have the advantage that the hydrogen production occurs, somewhere else, as in not the car. They're basically batteries, produce energy with something else, store it in the hydrogen.

In this system though your extra energy is coming from an RF field, and the water only burns while you have that RF field. It seems to me you'd have to take your RF field with you wherever you go, meaning it's probably not particularly useful. Even if you can extract the hydrogen, instead of immediately burning it, it's not apparent to me that this is going to be any more energy efficient than electrolysis (in fact it seems it must be less so), which is not the preferred hydrogen production method to begin with.

But then, I'm not a chemist.

[Ummon]

Ugh, the guy seems known for studies on homeopathy...

Not that I have prejudices, but...

[ajm317]

Although the water would not properly be a FUEL I guess this COULD still be useful as part of an engine, say a steam turbine engine or something. Whether or not it would be, I don't know; you'd have to ask an engineer, but you'd still need an energy source for your RF field.

[David Deas]

""ERIE, Pa. - An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.

John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.

The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.

The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.

The discovery is "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years," Roy said.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Roy said. "Seeing it burn gives me the chills."

Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense to try to obtain research funding.

The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen — which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit — would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Roy said. "The potential is huge." ""

So what do you guys think of this: another pipe dream or maybe the real deal?

P.S. How do you quote a story?

Ah. Popular science. Gotta love popular science.

The article plainly states that the beginning product and the end product are salt water. For any non-student of thermodynamics, that means all of the energy is coming from the RF waves.

I'm not certain why any scientist would think salt water could be used as a source of fuel. I think that we've known for a long enough time already that there is no energy in water.

[Ummon]

More properly:

1) no link
2) radiofrequency vs. cancer? Seems to be the case. Much time since I've been up to date on these.
3) the "chemist" has been researching the spectrum of homeopathic solutions
4) the "doctor": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kanzius

John Kanzius
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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John Kanzius, a former broadcast executive from Erie, Pennsylvania, attracted media attention in 2007 with claims of burning salt water by means of a radio frequency generator that releases the oxygen and hydrogen from salt water and creates an intense flame.[1] Kanzius has admitted that early versions of his machine require more energy than it releases. Skeptics have compared his machine to a perpetual motion machine and suggest it would violate fundamental laws of physics if it could be made to release more energy than it consumes. The details of the process are still unreleased while Kanzius applies for a patent.[1] He states that the discovery was made accidentally while he was researching the use of radio waves for the treatment of cancer.[2]

According to newspaper reports, the effect has been successfully reproduced by his business partner Rustum Roy, an emeritus materials scientist and homeopathy practitioner.[3]. According to Roy, "The salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies." It has not undergone any form of traditional peer-review.

Kanzius holds a patent for an Enhanced Systems and Methods for RF-Induced Hyperthermia[4] which describes potential medical uses of radio waves for diseases such as cancer.

Well, for a moment I have been tricked, I confess. Luckily, not by popular science... :wink:

[Beiss]

I first thought that it was the salt that burned. If this is what happens when you apply radio waves on water, what does this say about cellphone usage and cancer? How powerful is this radio they're using?

Anyway, it sounds like a really cool party gadget. I wonder what happens if you use the radio on an (saltwater) aquarium full of fish...

[Simetrical]

I think that we've known for a long enough time already that there is no energy in water.

Plenty of energy in the hydrogen, for fusion at least. Maybe not much usable chemical energy, though.

I first thought that it was the salt that burned. If this is what happens when you apply radio waves on water, what does this say about cellphone usage and cancer? How powerful is this radio they're using?

Apparently it has to be a pretty specific frequency, and doubtless fairly powerful as well.

Anyway, it sounds like a really cool party gadget. I wonder what happens if you use the radio on an (saltwater) aquarium full of fish...

It'd be a lot quicker and cheaper to dump some potassium in.

[Beiss]

But not as fun... right? I've seen it done with Sodium, but then you either get a tiny motorboat or a big boom.

[Garbarsardar]

I will just repost it here:

And, Oil is going out of style fast, just like coal did when the combustion engine was developed. WE CAN BURN WATER

Let's have a look at BURNING WATER now:

First the article you quoted:

John Kanzius says he happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he says he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.

The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University emeritus professor of chemistry, has held demonstrations at his State College, Pa., lab to confirm his own observations.

[Roy is also a specialist in "whole person healing" and Christian sexuality.]

So this guy while busy curing Cancer accidentally cured our energy issues. The astounding discovery is confirmed by a specialist in Christian Sexuality.

Must be the breakthrough of the millennium then...

Oh wait!

The above system uses ~1 KW of RF energy to generate a plasma flame that's rooted on the surface of the saltwater. There's no mechanism or evidence of hydrogen actually being generated within the liquid but there may be active boiling near the root of the plasma. You're seeing displacement currents at work as RF current is transfered into/out of the discharge (once initiated). If you notice, he needs to either provide a concentrated e-field (to generate corona which from the edges of the paper towel and evolves into the arc) or he needs to strike an arc to initiate the plasma. He's (re)created a microwave plasma torch, using a saltwater column as an electrode. Efficiency of output power versus input is likely no more than 30%...

And let us see what physics think about it:

This is not in itself to pass any judgement on Kanzius's claims; as ever, they must stand or fall on the basis of careful experiment. But the most fundamental, the most critical question about the whole business leaps out at you so immediately that its absence from these reports, whether they be on Pennsylvania's JET-TV or on PhysOrg.com, is staggering. Can you get more energy out than you put in?

I can answer that right now: no. You start with water, you break it apart into its constituent elements (hydrogen and oxygen), and then you recombine them by burning. Yes you can do that. Hydrogen, indeed, is the promised fuel of the new clean energy economy. But making hydrogen from water takes more energy than you can ever recover from burning it. Extracting net energy from this total cycle is impossible, if you believe in the first and second laws of thermodynamics. Otherwise, you have the basis of a perpetual-motion machine.

But 'energy for free' enthusiasts don't want to know about thermodynamics. Thermodynamics is a killjoy. Thermodynamics is like big government or big industry, always out to squash innovation. Thermodynamics is the enemy of the Edisonian spirit of the backyard inventor.

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/0709...070910-13.html

Well, there goes the burning water and your argument. Any other brilliant suggestions? Fart gas? The philosopher's stone maybe?

I think we better sit comfortably and wait for the cancer cure.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

The answer is obvious as to why this technology would never work-


From the WIki which has changed somewhat since I last looked

Water-related discovery
Later in 2007, Kanzius announced that the same radio frequency transceiver can also be used to burn salt water.[6] [10] The discovery was made accidentally while he was researching the use of radio waves for desalination. Kanzius said that "In this case we weren't looking for energy, we were looking for something that might do desalinization. The more were we tried desalinization, the more heat we produced, until we got fire".[10] Kanzius admits that this stage of development of his method, the process could not be considered an energy source, as more energy is used to produce the RF signal than can be obtained from the burning gas, and stated in July, 2007 that he never claimed his discovery would replace oil, asserting only that his discovery was "thought provoking."[11] The details of the process are still unreleased while Kanzius applies for a patent.[11] Kanzius has proposed that the flame is produced by radio waves forcing together the normally separated hydrogen and oxygen in the water, a process he calls "reunification."[11]

I believe Sim brought up this point very early on in this topic:hmmm: .

[David Deas]

A little late, guy.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

A little late, guy.

Yes we both were as Simetrical pointed this out in the 5th post of this thread. I was emphasising that the researcher himself is being upfront in saying that his method requires more energy then it produces. What exactly was the purpose of your last comment?

[David Deas]

Sorry. That wasn't directed at you. Since I'm posting from a cell phone, I sometimes have technical difficulties.

Sorry.

[Garbarsardar]

Sorry. That wasn't directed at you. Since I'm posting from a cell phone, I sometimes have technical difficulties.

Sorry.

+rep for posting from a cell phone without spelling errors.