Gunpowder units?

[M2TWRocks]

I searched the forums and only found a single post from way back in April.

Are there plans for adding gunpowder units to the roster? Or did I just miss them somewhere while anxiously looking through the unit roster?

Cheers.

[Son of Mao]

No!

[Son of Mao]

End this thread before other people start asking for gunpowder

[M2TWRocks]

This mod has made me very interested in the military history of the region. Did they not use gunpowder weapons during this time in the middle east? The timeframe is up to 1400 right? Just curious.

[Ahiga]

This mod has made me very interested in the military history of the region. Did they not use gunpowder weapons during this time in the middle east? The timeframe is up to 1400 right? Just curious.

They did. It came about fairly early. In what I read, the Turks used cannons against the Mongols around 1248, the Moors were using it in Spain aorund the 1240s (Or even 1230s), and hand cannons were apparently featured in an Italian force around the 1250s-1280s.

The impression I gathered was that prior to the 1300s, they were around, but quite rare and rugged, though more advanced than what was had in Europe at the same time. Into the 1300s you have them being accessable enough to be found in most armies.

The reason we haven't really been gung ho about them is mainly because our focus was on developing the sword and saddle rosters, with naffta and gunpowder an afterthought (naffta's been added, of course). For Gunpowder Infantry, you won't see them in 1.0, and perhaps not in any future versions.

Though I personally (speaking as an individual and not a member of the team) would like to see them, once I get a greater feel for their use in this region. As for Gunpowder Siege Weapons, I don't know if we added them or not for 1.0. If we did not, then I would assume we'd add them in the future

[AlphaDelta]

The decision to add gunpowder or not is, as Ahiga mentions, something that needs to be thoroughly considered. Importantly we need to identify which factions did and did not widely use gunpowder. We will have to discuss and research which factions, in the time frame of the mod, had the means and technology to produce their own weapons, so that we may implement an accurate AOR. We also need to identify the trade route through which gunpowder weapons travelled, and which major settlements on this route would of had markets setup to sell them.

We have a similar AOR setup for basic siege weapons (ballista, catapul, trebuchet) that limits their recruitment to factions and settlements big enough to realistically have engineering workshop, and engineers to build them.

Cheers

[Randarkmaan]

What you have to know is that in many places, after the introduction of gunpowder, the word for naptha ("naft") had become synonomous with gunpowder. Mamluk armies used something they called chinese arrows which were coated with "naft" (at this time probably referring to gunpowder, may have been something like the chinese "fire arrows" which were rockets launched from sticks. At the siege of Acre gunpowder also seems to have been used by the Mamluks, don't remember in exactly what forms as it's a while since I read that book, but I think their trebuchets may have thrown some kind of bombs. At the time explosive mines were probably used by sappers digging beneath fortifications. A pity that CA left that feature out of MTW2, as it was a highly very developed science in the Middle East.
Anyway, in future versions there should be many kinds of incendiary weapons used by the Muslims (and the Byzantines) in this mod, as that was one of the ways they were technologically superior to Europe at the time, incendiary weapons practically obsoleted siege towers and other wooden ramparts for accessing walls, leading to further development of the mangonel (the trebuchet being a counter-weight mangonel, of either Muslim or Byzantine origin). And naptha (before it became synonomous with gunpowder) wasn't only used in grenades, it was also projected from copper tubes, sort of like the "Greek flame throwers" in kingdoms, but sometimes just by blowing in the other end of the pipe. Also balistas often shot naptha pots rather than large bolts, would it be probable to give them a "flaming projectile" and make it appear like a naptha grenade?

One of the future BC versions should be focused on adding a lot of these weapons into the game, adding all these technological weapons into the game will make players have a different view of Middle Eastern warfare other than just the normal bow, lance or sword-armed troops.

[M2TWRocks]

What you have to know is that in many places, after the introduction of gunpowder, the word for naptha ("naft") had become synonomous with gunpowder. Mamluk armies used something they called chinese arrows which were coated with "naft" (at this time probably referring to gunpowder, may have been something like the chinese "fire arrows" which were rockets launched from sticks. At the siege of Acre gunpowder also seems to have been used by the Mamluks, don't remember in exactly what forms as it's a while since I read that book, but I think their trebuchets may have thrown some kind of bombs. At the time explosive mines were probably used by sappers digging beneath fortifications. A pity that CA left that feature out of MTW2, as it was a highly very developed science in the Middle East.
Anyway, in future versions there should be many kinds of incendiary weapons used by the Muslims (and the Byzantines) in this mod, as that was one of the ways they were technologically superior to Europe at the time, incendiary weapons practically obsoleted siege towers and other wooden ramparts for accessing walls, leading to further development of the mangonel (the trebuchet being a counter-weight mangonel, of either Muslim or Byzantine origin). And naptha (before it became synonomous with gunpowder) wasn't only used in grenades, it was also projected from copper tubes, sort of like the "Greek flame throwers" in kingdoms, but sometimes just by blowing in the other end of the pipe. Also balistas often shot naptha pots rather than large bolts, would it be probable to give them a "flaming projectile" and make it appear like a naptha grenade?

One of the future BC versions should be focused on adding a lot of these weapons into the game, adding all these technological weapons into the game will make players have a different view of Middle Eastern warfare other than just the normal bow, lance or sword-armed troops.

Thanks for all the info! This stuff is facinating.

[CaesarBR]

What you have to know is that in many places, after the introduction of gunpowder, the word for naptha ("naft") had become synonomous with gunpowder. Mamluk armies used something they called chinese arrows which were coated with "naft" (at this time probably referring to gunpowder, may have been something like the chinese "fire arrows" which were rockets launched from sticks. At the siege of Acre gunpowder also seems to have been used by the Mamluks, don't remember in exactly what forms as it's a while since I read that book, but I think their trebuchets may have thrown some kind of bombs. At the time explosive mines were probably used by sappers digging beneath fortifications. A pity that CA left that feature out of MTW2, as it was a highly very developed science in the Middle East.
Anyway, in future versions there should be many kinds of incendiary weapons used by the Muslims (and the Byzantines) in this mod, as that was one of the ways they were technologically superior to Europe at the time, incendiary weapons practically obsoleted siege towers and other wooden ramparts for accessing walls, leading to further development of the mangonel (the trebuchet being a counter-weight mangonel, of either Muslim or Byzantine origin). And naptha (before it became synonomous with gunpowder) wasn't only used in grenades, it was also projected from copper tubes, sort of like the "Greek flame throwers" in kingdoms, but sometimes just by blowing in the other end of the pipe. Also balistas often shot naptha pots rather than large bolts, would it be probable to give them a "flaming projectile" and make it appear like a naptha grenade?

One of the future BC versions should be focused on adding a lot of these weapons into the game, adding all these technological weapons into the game will make players have a different view of Middle Eastern warfare other than just the normal bow, lance or sword-armed troops.

Really Good stuff!
+Rep

[Miraj]

Great info Randarkmaan! +rep

This is something we should definitely think deeply about and give dedicated time to in future updates. From the Osprey books i've read the use of very unique and diverse naphta and gunpowder weapons during seiges seems to be quite common through out our map.

[Rex Armeniae]

to be honest, my oppinion is that bc would be better off without gunpowder. Either that, or all factions needs to have arquebusiers or something else that all factions have.

Or else, im sure it'll be fun to send your Trebizond Archers to fire against some gunpowder units

[IrAr]

I hope we don't see any hand-guns.