Idea: More units for Apache, Chichimec

[Kiki52]

I am not really a modder either, only doing very minor work at modding in other units into the rebel side and playing as them in vanilla MTW2. But I think it would be nice if they modded in many new units, buildings, and traits/ancillaries for Native Americans and European colonists. I was hoping someone could do something to this extent or something similar based upon their own ideas. Most of these ideas involve no new skins but I think just some coding would be made. Although I am not good at it and all and I hope someone can make these ideas in, you can make a spinoff however you'd like.

Apache:
I'd like to see some more awesome units for these.
-Mounted Kostenko's (sp? sorry I can't spell), these are elite horse archers which are basically their elite archers on horses. They are good as they are made so once gunpowder comes to the Apaches, there is still a use for good old arrows. Very powerful and their volleys are good against both native warriors and European invaders alike.
8 melee attack
13 missile attack
Very good stamina
Fast moving

-Mounted Onde's Men, they are good lancer/melee horsemen. While not as good as the Chichimec in melee charges with horses, they still make good light cavalry for chasing down archers, musketeers, and routing units.
11 melee attack
4 charge attack bonus
Very Good stamina
Fast moving

-Elite Scouts, they are good melee warriors. They are good in melee, and can hide anywhere. While not as powerful as their Chichimec neighbor's melee units, they still are very good hard hitting infantry that can hide.
14 melee attack
12 defense
can hide anywhere
Very good stamina

Chichimec:

-Mounted Chica Musketeers
These are very similar to the Apache's Mounted Thunder Braves, but should be slightly weaker in some way to emphasize the Apache's affinity with ranged weapons, and the Chichimec's ability with melee.

-Mounted Chica Archers
These are mounted archers for the Chica, but not as good as the Apache's mounted archers in general.

-Elite Chica Rider
These are amongst the best melee/lancer horses the Native Americans can have. They deliver an adequately good charge for being a light cavalry unit, and are fast moving.
12 melee attack
5 charge bonus
Very good stamina
Fast moving

-Elite Chichimec Warrior
These represent even more powerful melee units for the Chichimec. They have a powerful charge, and powerful melee abilities. However, they cannot hide.
15 attack
14 defense
Very good Stamina
Excellent Morale

More things:
These are just some ideas.

More ideas, I hope someone can with Gundog's permission, use Aztec Riders mod to give Aztecs some horses. Maybe someone can also do a mounted hornet thrower too. That'd be fun.

Also, for Chichimec and Apache, they should change these their unit sizes so that they are all small, and have 2 HP. The general's body guard should be changed to 3 HP. Like the unit size for most Apache/Chichimec is small like maybe 30 people for an infantry unit or 20 for a horse unit. This is to represent the small unit numbers those Native Americans have. However, the Apache and Chichimec should use their hide anywhere ability and fast moving, as well as the ability to move faster on the campaign map to set up pincer attacks on European factions in order to win, as the Apache/Chichimec will find it hard to win against the Europeans in a straight up fight.
Maybe these new Apache/Chichimec units stats would be rebalanced so even if I put down 12 attack 5 charge, it'd be different because I don't know how to balance having 20 horsemen with 2 HP, with those stats would work without making them overpowered or underpowered versus Mesoamericans or European factions.

The Mesoamerican factions like Aztecs and Mayans though have large unit sizes like 75 men in a unit. They should also be able to field massive armies quickly.

Those are just some ideas. What do you think of them?

[NorthernArmy]

Great Post. I myself bought the XP to play as the Tarascans, So I would also like to see more Native Units.

Its very well known that the Tarascans (Purepecha) were master Coppersmith's and some sources state that they in fact had discovered bronze by the time of the Spanish Conquest. The Copper Axes are known to have been very useful in battle & may indeed have been a main reason for thwarting Aztec invasions, not to mention their copper spears. Just knowing this hopefully it will be possible to implement a few more tarascan units.

[0utlaw]

Absolutely, there are some good books out there as well to really give some distinction between the Native Civs. I was hoping to see more distinction between the Tarascan/Aztec/Tlaxicans as well. Tlaxicans in particular were heavy in archers which was a change from the typical troop makeup for the Meso civs.

Some civs meso's in particular had some serious troop division and formations. The south east US for DeSoto's expedition met heavy resistance with troops that fielded bows which had nearly the armor penetration of their rifles if not their equal. Which is why nearly none of the SE Indian wore armor. However, central & even more western tribes like the Tlingits had near fully wooden body armor resembling that of the Samurai. Theres lots of flavor in there and CA did a good job about paving the way for us we as a community just need to build on that.

[Fenix_120]

[quote=Kiki52;2132275]

-Mounted Kostenko's (sp? sorry I can't spell), these are elite horse archers which are basically their elite archers on horses. They are good as they are made so once gunpowder comes to the Apaches, there is still a use for good old arrows. Very powerful and their volleys are good against both native warriors and European invaders alike.
8 melee attack
13 missile attack
Very good stamina
Fast moving
/quote]

No native American faction could field a military unit that could go toe to toe with European units in this time frame.

Only after Native American's started using guns and steel and European's stopped regularly using armor did Natives start to use units as powerful as this one would be.


I love history and some small historical accuracies missing from a game will not bother me, but a major one like this would make me not want to play your mod.



Now your unit can be made, after natives started using steel weapons
But European's would also still be wearing armor, which even steel arrow and ax heads would not pierce, they did not use the bodkin arrows design that the English used or the Viking bearded ax's design.



The only thing that would pierce plate or even chain armor that the Natives had access to during this time period would be a Lance with a steel leaf shaped head or a musket,
Their is some talk that the Aztec Atl-atl could pierce plate armor even though it did not have a steel head, But these guys are Apache's not Aztec, and I'd like to see you try using one from horse back ( for those of you who have not seen an Atl-atl, you would fall off the horse).


I'm sorry but this unit has no place in this game.






[quote=Kiki52;2132275]
-Mounted Onde's Men, they are good lancer/melee horsemen. While not as good as the Chichimec in melee charges with horses, they still make good light cavalry for chasing down archers, musketeers, and routing units.
11 melee attack
4 charge attack bonus
Very Good stamina
Fast moving

-Elite Scouts, they are good melee warriors. They are good in melee, and can hide anywhere. While not as powerful as their Chichimec neighbor's melee units, they still are very good hard hitting infantry that can hide.
14 melee attack
12 defense
can hide anywhere
Very good stamina


/quote]




These units attack is a little to high, even an elite scout is still just a scout, I mean your guys have the same attack as the Aztec Jaguar warriors...



The Mounted Onde's Men should have steel lance heads, then their high attack would make sense, and they should only be trainable after France first lands, as the French were the first ones to trade steel with the Natives.



[quote=Kiki52;2132275]
-Mounted Chica Musketeers
These are very similar to the Apache's Mounted Thunder Braves, but should be slightly weaker in some way to emphasize the Apache's affinity with ranged weapons, and the Chichimec's ability with melee.


/quote]



This unit would be great. and it is true that the Chichimec's used more ranged weapons than the neighbors.

...................................................................................................

Every thing else i agree with.

And don't let my criticism get you down, I think you have a great mind.

You just need to brush up a little on your history thats all

[0utlaw]

[QUOTE=Fenix_120;2148517]

No native American faction could field a military unit that could go toe to toe with European units in this time frame.


The only thing that would pierce plate or even chain armor that the Natives had access to during this time period would be a Lance with a steel leaf shaped head or a musket,
Their is some talk that the Aztec Atl-atl could pierce plate armor even though it did not have a steel head, But these guys are Apache's not Aztec, and I'd like to see you try using one from horse back ( for those of you who have not seen an Atl-atl, you would fall off the horse).

I'm sorry but this unit has no place in this game.


This unit would be great. and it is true that the Chichimec's used more ranged weapons than the neighbors.

...................................................................................................

Every thing else i agree with.

And don't let my criticism get you down, I think you have a great mind.

You just need to brush up a little on your history thats all

That's not entirely correct Fenix..

From a book in particular: Native North American Armor, Shields & Fortifications by David E. Jones.

I quote from him: Chapter 9, "Strongbows"
The Southeastern now averaged 50-60 inches in length and had a pull weight of 50lbs. The spaniards soon discovered it had an accurate killing range of about 200 pages and that their arqubus and metal armor provided little protection against it.

"Extraordinary penetration has been claimed for some indian weapons, and sworn by the eye witnesses. During the Florida campaigns, the Spaniards again and again found their Breastplates, which would stop musket balls, penetrated by arrows of the Creek Indians, Choctaws and Chickasaws. An Indian captive, made to demonstrate their shooting methods, shot clean through a heavy coat of mail, the arrow dropping to the ground beyond the back of the armor. He later also completely penetrated two such mail armors, one hung on top of the other."

So while Kiki's original post was in regards to the Apachean groups you are correct prior to contact it didn't appear that they had effective answer to armor. However, your over all assertion that none of the Indians had the ability to penetrate armor is incorrect.

Also you're assertion that no Native American group could go toe to toe with the European units is possibly correct, however, they didn't need to. The North American Indians used hit and run tactics to perfection they would pull up fire off a handful of shots retreat and come back later quickly whittling down invading forces. De Soto who was one of the wealthiest conquerors in Spain after wiping out the Inca an plundering South America faired poorly against the North American tribes and was whittled down and fled after 3 years. After that soundly of a beating it was decades before contact with many of the South Eastern tribes was attempted.

The problem is not that the North American tribes are weaker it's more that asymmetrical warfare is poorly implemented in this game.

[Fenix_120]

[quote=0utlaw;2149053]

That's not entirely correct Fenix..

From a book in particular: Native North American Armor, Shields & Fortifications by David E. Jones.

I quote from him: Chapter 9, "Strongbows"
The Southeastern now averaged 50-60 inches in length and had a pull weight of 50lbs. The spaniards soon discovered it had an accurate killing range of about 200 pages and that their arqubus and metal armor provided little protection against it.

"Extraordinary penetration has been claimed for some indian weapons, and sworn by the eye witnesses. During the Florida campaigns, the Spaniards again and again found their Breastplates, which would stop musket balls, penetrated by arrows of the Creek Indians, Choctaws and Chickasaws. An Indian captive, made to demonstrate their shooting methods, shot clean through a heavy coat of mail, the arrow dropping to the ground beyond the back of the armor. He later also completely penetrated two such mail armors, one hung on top of the other."

So while Kiki's original post was in regards to the Apachean groups you are correct prior to contact it didn't appear that they had effective answer to armor. However, your over all assertion that none of the Indians had the ability to penetrate armor is incorrect.

Also you're assertion that no Native American group could go toe to toe with the European units is possibly correct, however, they didn't need to. The North American Indians used hit and run tactics to perfection they would pull up fire off a handful of shots retreat and come back later quickly whittling down invading forces. De Soto who was one of the wealthiest conquerors in Spain after wiping out the Inca an plundering South America faired poorly against the North American tribes and was whittled down and fled after 3 years. After that soundly of a beating it was decades before contact with many of the South Eastern tribes was attempted.

The problem is not that the North American tribes are weaker it's more that asymmetrical warfare is poorly implemented in this game.

Ok, first of all...


The Mongol Composite bow had a pull weight of 120-160 lbs, the Welsh longbow had a pull of 140 - 180 lbs, and without bodkin arrows these extreamly powerful bows could not pierce chain mail armor made from iron.

Your book is most defiantly incorrect if it stats that a bow with only 50 lbs pull could pierce mail armor made from steel.

David E. Jones must not have studied the crusades, where Knights were shot by dozens of arrows, but emerged unscathed thanks to their mail armor, Muslim soldiers started calling Knights "Fighting Hedgehogs" because of all the arrows sticking out of their mail, arrows fired from far more powerful bows.

The idea that a bow with only 50 lbs pull could pierce steel plate is ludicrous, it ether had a higher pull weight, was really an Atl-atl and mistakingly called a bow(which happens a lot) , or David E. Jones is on pot.


Now an Aztec Atl-Atl could pierce the armor, and even though they were invented by the Aztecs they were used by all the south American Indian tribes, its possible that some of the other tribes imported this weapon, but it would have been rare.


Although you are correct about the hit and run tactics being successful they were actually very little use against the Spanish sword and buckler men, ho could break out of formation and fight pretty damn good on rugged terrain.

What stopped Spain's advance north was actually English privateers raiding the Spanish ships.

No ships, no reinforcements or supply's.


Where did you get that book? I want a copy.

[Kiki52]

Well the point of why I chose to make my units like that is not so much for historical accuracy. If you wanted to be historically accurate, then longbows the English have should shoot like 200 meters or greater than they do in the game. There would also be no such thing as "lazerphants" that own everyone like they do in the game (while they may have been elephants with Timurids shooting guns from them, they aren't the near invincible juggernauts like they are in the game).

The point why I suggested these things is to reflect that the Apache didn't "spam" units like thousands and thousands who are just cannon fodder but were few in number who needed to use hit and run tactics and that the Apache survived European attack for 300 some years after the Aztecs fell. We can't get too hung up on realism, but I think it is not as good to have spammed Apaches by massive hordes of hundreds of thousands getting killed than to have high attack/defense stats.

I'm sure there can be changes so that the attack/defense stats for the Apaches could be lower if too many people found it to be unrealistic or unbalanced.

But I understand. Thank you for the comment about my great mind. I appreciate it.