Illyria sandwitch monster

[CiusFortius]

So after about a year and a half break I'm playing a campaign again. I decided that whatever happened I had to play as Macedonia, or at least someone who could take them out early as I could not face another black death campaign. I prefer civilised factions with deaper tech trees but for some reason decided that Illyria looked like a nice challenge. Newver played as them before. Not sure of the settings, my hoplite units get 120 men though and slingers 60. difficulty is H/H. First thing I did was build a second diplomat and ally myself with everyone in the region who was not Macedonian. Got alliances with Greece, Thrace, and Rome very fast and maps from Macedonia. Built economic buildings at first waiting for the Macs to make the first move. They blockaded a port after a few turns so I launched my campaign. I moved a full stack into their territory around Pella and in one of their turns had 5 armies attack me! I managed to win the battles thanks largely to my big slinger contingent, and some healing ancilliary that I only spotted then. Took the mac capital and enslaved it and exterminated the coastal city bellow it the same turn with some luck. There was a small force just outside the city so I could attack it and kill the garrison as well when they came out to help. This left the city undefended so I took it the same turn. Used the looting money to stock up on mercinaries as I only have one city producing decent units right now.

Anyways, at this point I got a nasty surprise. After 2 turns my Greek allies betray me for no reason! They moved a full stack up the Western coast to attack my main troop production city! I had nothing that could take them out so I instead moved a force to take their two cities on the SW of me. I could only attack the cities with small token armies but I was hoping to just get them to lift the siege and move back to protect their city. Instead they sent out the garrison of 3 units including a family member to take on my 3 units. Slaugtered them and took the city that turn, and brought in a family member from the Macedonian capital. Next turn they still sieged my town so I took the next city as well and recruited a few more mercs. At that point they lifted the seige and I managed to get two half stacks either side of them and kill most of them. Now I am facing both the macs and greeks who are now allied, and knowing the AI Thrace will soon follow suite as they border me on the NE.

I hate the part of the AI that makes them always attack you when you share a border with them despite any alliances. I even accepted a protectorship demand from the Macs thinking I'd use the breather to take the Greeks out but the same turn I submitted to the protectorship they blockaded my port again! Makes no flipping sense! I have left the rebel cities to the North of me alone hoping to avoid war with Gaul etc. With no border perhaps they will ignore me and fight the romans or something. I have been very lucky to win thus far against two very strong civilised factions like Greece and Macedon. At least my economy is doing good. Building economic buildings was a good decision I think. Its left me relying on mercs a bit but I can afford them at least. My largely merc armies are now seiging the Northern most Mac city which I will hold at all costs. I have left heir Eastern most city alone though as its a buffer between me and the TSE and Ptelomics. Imaging getting into a war with them as well, shudder.

If I can steamroll Southern Greece I think I should have a chance as it will reduce the number of fronts I am fighting on and provide good money. If thrace backstabs me at this point though I will be in serious trouble! Gaul is also trying to take the Northern reble city and I'm shure they will also backstab me given a common border.

So what advice is there from experienced Illyrian players. What units should I rely on? Their 2hp hoplites seem nice but too expensive right now. Slaves are nice shock troops but low numbers and low armour means they just die too fast. The illyrian slingers seem OK, especialy when bolstered by cretan mercs. The cavalry also isn't bad and the nice thing is there is a standard ancilliary priest that keeps arriving that gives all my generals +2 command stars when commanding cav so I keep at least one extra cav despite the cost in each of my main armies. This I think has been helping my morale a lot.

Any nice AoR units I should gun for? I seem to recall that Macedonian slingers are good and have long range. Can I get those as AoR?

[fiendishoc]

This reply is kinda late, but I just started an Illyrian campaign and so far, having a lot of fun with it. I'm playing on M/M, and haven't really encountered crazy diplomatic behavior yet.

My strategy is pretty much the same as yours- ally with everyone and concentrate on one opponent. Originally, it was everyone but Gaul, but then my ally Greece attacked my ally Macedonia. I refused to help, so my alliance w/ Macedonia was in tatters. I immediately allied with Gaul, and started taking Macedonian cities, accidentally catching the plague for my efforts. Now, those ultra-aggressive Greek allies have attack my other friend Rome, putting that alliance in tatters as well. I can just see the clever Greeks bastards stabbing me in the back later and then joining the Macedonians and Romans. I also went for economy first. Having mines in all the starting cities ensured that I have steady cashflow, and the ability to march into enemy territory with a partial force while grabbing every merc in the area as needed.

Now for battlefield strategy- I noticed you didn't mention skirmishers, which actually make the bulk of my army. Illyria gets the best skirmishers for their value (about 250 cost, 11 attack, 14 defense, 5 charge). My general tactic is to pin with the phalanx line and hit the flanks or rear with skirmishers. The enemy infantry usually melts in seconds under the withering fire, which is quite disturbing, considering if you pin the enemy between 2 heavy phalanxes, you only kill them about a tenth as quickly. My calvary is usually held in reserve to counter enemy horse trying to get at the skirms, and then chase down routers.

My typical setup is with the illyrian thureophoroi up front in loose formation, phalanx line (doesn't really matter what type) behind them, merc slingers on the flanks, a few mercenary throw / charge infantry units behind the phalanx at the flanks w/ fire at will on, thin merc archer line behind them and calvary backing up the ranged units. I send the mass of skirmishers forward to harass the enemy flanks, which is usually enough to make the computer do something incredibly stupid, like commit a only quarter of their forces at a time, or send horses in pursuit all the way into the trailing spear wall. When the enemy infantry charge, I do the pin and pin cushion maneuver I described above, collapse the flanks, and then roll them up, followed by a router slaughter by the horsemen.

[Vercenetorix]

I too have just started with Illyria. I finished with Rome and Greek Cities. Now time for a challenge.

I like the barbarian hoplites and skirmishers. A bit too early to post any real news but I have already been betrayed by both Greece and Macedonia. I took the Northern barb city beside the gauls so I expect an attack in the next ten turns or so

I am going to go after the Macedonians more than their southern neighbours seeing as the are more dangerous. I went for economy first also, but money is tight right now.

playing on VH campaign and Medium battles.

As for Mercs, it has to be the Cretan aaaachers. They kick ass and chew bubble gum.

[CiusFortius]

I'm afraid that I gave up on the campaign quickly as it kept bombing to desktop. Irritates me so much that such a good game is so buggy. Oh well. Guess I will carry on waiting for 7.

Everyone always lauds the skirmishers but personally I have never had much luck with them. Their ammo is expended so quickly, and then they are really just weak melee guys. I get them as garrison units and cheap slot fillers in my army to soak up enemy missiles but preffer my slingers and archers to be frank.

[fiendishoc]

Did you install the CTD revolt fix posted in the forum? The crash to desktop problem could be that one of your cities is revolting w/o any units in it. That was a pain in the ass for me before I installed it.

I wasn't convinced about the skirmishers at first either, until they essentially won a siege for me. I outnumbered the enemy, but they had several phalanxes in the town square. I engaged them with a phalanx to phalanx push from the front, and then hit them from the back with some swordsmen and another phalanx. The enemy started fighting to the death, and was causing me heavy casualties, so I pulled back my flanking troops and hit them from the back with a calvary charge- which resulted in more losses for me and a retreat. Finally, I brought in my skirmishers to forward to shoot them from the back. The enemy phalanxes literally melted in seconds.

The difference between doing that with other ranged troops and skirmishers, is that, once in range, the skirmishers fire much faster. Plus, I feel much more comfortable putting them in dangerous positions as cost is so low. I'm not going risk my expensive Rhodian slingers or Cretan archers in a risky flanking maneuver. Yes, running out of javelins is a pain in the ass- It happens almost every battle. But usually, by that time, the enemy is wavering and a tight formation melee charge to the rear does the trick (Illyrians skirms are best suited for this). Fighting large reinforcement armies is a problem though.

Update to my campaign. True to form, the Greeks betrayed me by laying siege to my capital. In doing so, they also managed to cancel my alliances with the Gauls and Seleucids. Whereas once I was allied with almost everyone in the area, the Greeks managed to destroy all of those agreements except the one with Thrace (Hellenistic barbarians unite!). Furthermore, the Macedonians somehow managed to assassinate my brilliant faction leader! In retaliation, I sent plague ridden spies to every major city in Greece and Macedon, and started picking off family members and diplomats with assassins (even taking out the Macedonian assassin). I formed two armies from the garrison troops in the 3 Macedonian cities I had enslaved, one plague ridden force lead by my worst family member, and the other clean, led by my faction heir. I sent the plagued army to relieve my capital, and then chase the Greeks into Appolonia. At Appolonia, I fought a frantic battle with two armies led by family members.

Although outnumbered, I had the luxury of engaging one before the other could walk across the map. In the phalanx to phalanx battle, I continually hit the right flank, and ended up completely switching positions with Greeks. This resulted in my Cretan archers, who had been hanging back, being behind the enemy. The result was a mass slaughter by fire arrows.

This army took Apollonia, and my faction heir's army swooped in to kill the Greek faction leader (who only had a small force with him) and are currently besieging the neighboring Greek city that the survivors fled to. Luckily, unlike Cius' game, the Greeks and Macedonians are still at war with each other. After I put these two Greek cities to the sword, I will conquer downwards to cleanse the rest of the Balkans of the feuding and plague ridden 'civilized' Hellenes. Afterwards, I plan to leave them their island colonies and fringe cities as buffers to other nations. I can then turn my attention back to the Gauls, as planned (I had taken the rebel city in the beginning, and they would be my only non-allied land neighbors left).

Hope you get your Illyrian campaign started again- it really is a lot of fun, tho I'm not sure if I should be playing a harder difficulty level.

[Hussarknight]

In my Illyrian campaign I chose to expand into Italy first. Taking out the Romans before they became too powerful. I left Aquila to the rebels to serve as a buffer against the Gauls.

Expanding into Greece early on isn't the greatest idea. The phalanx will soon become your doom. If you first get a money flow from Italy and possibly Sicily going, you do have the resources to beat the Greeks and Macedonians. If you go to war with the Greeks in Italy, make sure you can defend your homelands. Also build up a navy to prevent the Greeks from shipping their soldiers around.

[CiusFortius]

In my Illyrian campaign I chose to expand into Italy first. Taking out the Romans before they became too powerful. I left Aquila to the rebels to serve as a buffer against the Gauls.

Expanding into Greece early on isn't the greatest idea. The phalanx will soon become your doom. If you first get a money flow from Italy and possibly Sicily going, you do have the resources to beat the Greeks and Macedonians. If you go to war with the Greeks in Italy, make sure you can defend your homelands. Also build up a navy to prevent the Greeks from shipping their soldiers around.

Interesting oppinion. I have the opposite view to you. I think that Illyria is better at taking out the inflexible phalanx heavy armies of Macedon and Greece early. I found steamrolling the Greece/Mecedon alliance even on H/H not that bad with your decent pinning phalanxes and good flankers. Before I gave up on my game I was doing very well for a poor barbarian nation with little trade. Once Greece is secure you have almost infinite money and Italy would fall fast due to the incredible cashflow of Greece + Rhodes. It also prevents the Macs becomming the Black death. Rome is prety sluggish in Platinum so leaving them alone while you consoldiate Greece costs you little.

[andipandy123]

ha ive beaten you all in my campaign with illyria. First i chose Illyria for its relatively acessable heavy hoplite but i didnt want to face macedon. though i wanted a natural defence so i had to horde. so that left me with 3 or 4 options. Take Crete and build a small army for the time being and let the hellanistic factions wear each other down. I could have sailed a long journey to britain and concentrate on the gauls and germans. i could take well defended italy and face the macedonians sooner rather than later.

so i decided on the last most advantagious option. I took iberia. I knew that taking Iberia would mean war with carthage, iberia and possibly gaul. i was confident of defeating warbands easily. carthage i knew couldnt raise its civilised units in iberia so i would face smaller units of them and they couldnt replenish quickly. so ive taken iberia people. took time and patience to move my hordes through gaulish areas declaring war on them in the process when they blocked my path. but iberia is mine and so is palma. so i think im going south into carthage herself. the most powerful civilisation but im confident.

[fourganger]

ha ive beaten you all in my campaign with illyria. First i chose Illyria for its relatively acessable heavy hoplite but i didnt want to face macedon. though i wanted a natural defence so i had to horde. so that left me with 3 or 4 options. Take Crete and build a small army for the time being and let the hellanistic factions wear each other down. I could have sailed a long journey to britain and concentrate on the gauls and germans. i could take well defended italy and face the macedonians sooner rather than later.

so i decided on the last most advantagious option. I took iberia. I knew that taking Iberia would mean war with carthage, iberia and possibly gaul. i was confident of defeating warbands easily. carthage i knew couldnt raise its civilised units in iberia so i would face smaller units of them and they couldnt replenish quickly. so ive taken iberia people. took time and patience to move my hordes through gaulish areas declaring war on them in the process when they blocked my path. but iberia is mine and so is palma. so i think im going south into carthage herself. the most powerful civilisation but im confident.

I did something similar once. Given that Illyria start with a navy, I abandoned Europe and went straight for Carthage (sacking Syracuse on the way). Once I took Carthage it was all over - without the trade that that city brings in, they had no way to support their massive navies and their elephant units, so they weren't really able to raise any troops against me. After consolidating Africa and the Western Islands I moved into Italy. Then I got bored. I think Illyrian units are a lot less fun to paly than Germanic ones, or the Getai.


One interesting by product of this venture was that while Greece and Macedon hacked at each other, the Getai/Thracians took all the rebel territory left by me. Then they stormed Greece (no doubt thanks to all that lovely Gold). Only time I've ever seen them do anything interesting!

[Tusk]

The Illyrians sound a great challenge. Has anyone any experiance of their hoplites? How do the skimishers fare against horses?

[Jamey]

I've played Illyria in the past. Their starting position is really their most interesting feature. You're sitting in the crossroads of Europe surrounded by aggressive powers who want the gold in your hills.

I played Illyria with a core of hoplites flanked by Thracian infantry. I used the Thureophoroi and my generals for flanking/rear attack units. When I could get my hands on them, Bastarnae mercs were worth their weight in gold (at that point, they had 2 HP) for use in flank and rear attacks. It wasn't my favorite army composition, but it works.

As for alliances, they can be made to last. Just never, ever depend on the AI not attacking you. My understanding is that after looking at defensive needs (which, I'm sure you've noticed, it tends to do poorly with), the AI looks at each stack and searches for a nearby target for it to attack. If your settlements are closer to the AI's unit production centers than the other possible enemies', you're likely to be attacked. There are ways to reduce this risk:

• Keep strong garrisons in all border settlements. In RTR-PE, I like to keep a full stack composed of at least half front line units (rather than inexpensive garrison units I use for my internal settlements).
• Keep fleets (even one ship) in port near the edges of your territory and anywhere else the AI seems to like to blockade.
• Give your ally 100 denarii per turn in tribute. The AI overvalues that long term gift.
• Avoid having land borders with allies when you can.
• Never, ever violate any ally's territory with troops or spies if you don't have military access. That just devastates your internal reputation with other allies. I don't tend to put spies into non-enemy settlements anymore because I think it annoys nations other than the one which you've been spying on.
• Finally, fight a shared war. The allies who've never betrayed me are the ones whom I've fought with repeatedly in shared battles. One that stands out in my mind is Armenia in my Sarmatian campaign. I had military access with them (you have it at the start of an ExRM campaign), so whenever someone besieged an Armenian settlement I broke the siege. I shared a border with them for 100 turns and they never once sent an army towards my settlements.
• If the AI randomly and stupidly blockades your port, you can try reloading and running the AI turn again. More often than not, it will avoid doing it the second time around.

Lastly, be aware that you can only mitigate the chance of the AI doing something stupid. Sometimes (especially on difficulties harder than medium), the AI seems to decide that it has to go after the human no matter the cost.