Regarding Hoplites

[TWFanatic]

Hello modders! My apologies the the moderators if I've posted in the wrong section, I'm rather new here and trying to find my way around this immense forum can be hard.

Currently, I’m using the EB and SPQR mods (Darth mod is next!). They’re both excellent mods, but I’ve always been annoyed by two things with the hoplites.

Although their new overhand animations are excellent, unfortunately they fight like undisciplined, unorganized rabble. Rather than staying formed in a tight phalanx when engaged, they break up and fight little 1-on-1 battles like Celtic swordsmen. Guard mode only makes them fight terribly, and sometimes only half the unit will be engaged while the rest just stand in formation and do nothing. Plus, they don’t push forward like hoplites are supposed to, and those engaged most often break off formation anyways. Therefore guard mode does not suffice. The other problem is that flanking them, which should be deadly, is of hardly any consequence.

Both of these problems just go to show that they fight like normal spearmen with the exception of the overhand thrusting. So I decided to experiment, and after much failure, I finally discovered the perfect formula for hoplites.

I, of course, worked in the EDU file (of both SPQR and EB). This is what I did, with all numbers and percentages approximated:

-Remove secondary weapon (sword)
-Give primary weapon (spear) the “short_pike” attribute
-Vastly increase charge bonus
-Tighten formations
-Reduce attack attribute by 15%
-Decrease armor and defense skill attributes by 50% for armor and 25% for defense skill
-Add points removed from attack, armor, and defense skill attributes together. Increase the sum by 10%. Add the final number to the shield attribute.
-Optionally edit collision mass and charge distance

Hoplites now stay in a tight formation and don’t break off in melee thanks to the short_pike attribute. I don’t know why, but this makes all the difference. Better yet, they push forward, driving the enemy back as if they were in the phalanx formation without guard mode (turn guard mode off on phalanx units and you’ll find they push forward). In fact, they hold their formation - without guard mode - as if they were in a phalanx, but with one notable difference: They are far more flexible due to their being able to run and charge like hoplites really could.

High shield defense means they’re almost impregnable from the front, but thanks to reduced armor and defense skill attributes, they’re highly vulnerable to flanking and missiles in the right flank (non shield-carrying side) and rear. The reduced attack and inflated overall defense is to reflect the historical reality that in hoplite battles, very few men would until one of the formations broke.

Btw, I’ve done the same thing (albeit to a lesser degree) with the pikemen. Thanks to higher shield defense and lower other defense, they are now more vulnerable to flanking maneuvers and just as impregnable from the front.

I wanted to share this discovery with the public since I know it has made the Hellenic factions in the mods I'm using much more exciting, historically accurate, and realistic.

I’d like to finish with a word of respect to the modders who created EB and SPQR, all of whom are vastly better and more experienced than me. Your work has immensely improved RTW and provided countless hours of playtime for many. Thank you!

[Dom9127]

If you get the XGM mod and you have BI, your hoplites fight in a traditional over arm phalanx, and stay in that position.

[TWFanatic]

One comment? Wow this forum is not nearly as active as I had expected.

Thanks though, Dom.

[Publius]

One comment? Wow this forum is not nearly as active as I had expected.

Thanks though, Dom.

Firstly, welcome to TWC.

Second, you have to remember a lot of people have moved on to the other game platforms CA has put out, so it is certainly slower than say, a year or two ago. Still, give it a little more than a day and I'm sure you'll get answers...

[Internazionale]

Yeah I hate to see the elite hoplites just rout-__- They was the best soldiers at their time. And ofc the spartans never rout no matter what era, they will never do it. And it is stupid as you mention a lot that they break their phalanx formation, and then its point is gone and your men will be slaughtered.

[TWFanatic]

Well, during the time-period of RTW (and most of its mods) the heyday of the classical hoplite is over. The same applys to the Spartans, their army was far weaker during that time-period than it was during the Persian and Peloponnesian Wars. My adjustments were just to make the phalanx formation more accurate, not change history.

[BigJake]

this is a great idea and i tried it out but without changing any of the stats and i noticed a small problem

the hoplites up th back hold the spear above the head and also aim it at the sky, i imagine this would be very hard and it just looks like ****. was there anything you had done to fix this???

[TWFanatic]

There is nothing you can do about that. It looks realistic though IMO.

I know Polybius said the Macedonian phalanxes held their sarrisae like that in "The Roman Maniple vs the Macedonian Phalanx," but I'm not sure if Hoplite phalanxes did. Anyone here know?

[bladerunner9]

So this will work with Signifiers animation pack correct? cuz this is definetly something i would like to modify.