HISTORICAL ARMIES

[dutch81]

Back by popular demand is the Historical Armies thread from the RTR-Forums.

Please contribute the compositions of Historical Armies of ALL FACTIONS. When posting please make sure that your post is well researched and accurate ... please contribute NEW armies only ... no duplicates will be accepted. In the case of factions where armies were radically different in composition due to reforms (rome for example) or geographical location (carthage for example) multiple posting will be accepted.

NO FEEDBACK please we want to keep this clean and user friendly at least until all the factions have been completed. In the meantime if you have problems or suggestions regarding this thread PM me.

Please contribute to this thread if you have particular knowledge of a certain factions field armies, we all thank you!

Enjoy!

Please follow the format Florin80 has kindly started.

[florin80]

Carthaginian army in Italy(phase one-after the addition of celts, but before the italics):

1 general
1 gallic noble cavalry (rectuited only at the arrival in Northern Italy, not from northern Spain or in Southern Galia)
1 gallic light cavalry (the same mention as above)
2 numidian cavalry (you could make it one merc unit and one aor, but it would be easier for game engine reasons to make them both merc or aor; you`ll be able to merge them)
1 scutarii cavalry* (recruited in Spain and preferable with experience already)
1 caetratii cavalry (the same mention as above)
2 berber javelinmen (recruited from North Africa obviously)
1 balearic slingers (mercs with experience)
2 liby phoenicians (one on each flank maybe)
4 gallic swordsmen
1 african elephant(no tower)
2 scutarii falcata infantry
1 cretan archers - they are not supposed to be here, but Osprey(for example) elects to consider the moorish skirmishers at Zama as archers and to guess their presence in Hanniball`s army from the start. Since there are no numidian/moorish archers as aor/mercs in RTR I`ve chosen cretans. If you want you can discard them.

* they are available to Carthage only in RTRPE, not in RTR 6 Gold or previous versions.

Note: the numbers on the left represent the number of each unit type.

I am aware that the number of cavalry units is a bit high. The proportion between infantry and cavalry should have been somewhere in the region of 5 to 1., but both heavy and light iberian cavalry shoud have been there and given the real numbers of the gallic and numidians they would have been too few in the game. Plus, in the game, even if the cavalry units are more then they should have been, the units themselves have less troopers then the infantry units(the liby-phoenicians are 60 in a unit on normal unit scale while the scutarii cavalry are about 20).

It would have been nice ot have two elephant units so you can have one on both flank, but I think it would have meant too many elephants overall. Plus, they lost them after Trebia and they played no part at Trasimene and Cannae. So, they`re supposed to disappear after the early stage.

Also, if you come from Spain with the army through Gaul I suggest replacing the gallic units with iberians at the start of the expedition and fighting a number of battles in northern Iberia and in Gaul and then at the arrival in Northern Italy merge the iberian units and replace the empty space with gallic units so that you`ll get the numbers above.
It`s just a try, I suppose their could be others. Also, this is inspired from history. You can`t have it very close to it due to engine limitations.

[dutch81]

PRE-MARIAN ROMAN LEGION:

1 General

1200 Velites represented by:
1 Slinger
1 Skirmisher

1200 Heavy Infantry represented by:
2 Hastati

1200 Heavy Infantry represented by:
2 Principes

600 Heavy Infantry represented by:
1 Triarii

200-300 Cavalry represented by:
1 Cavalry (or young general)

you can double this to get a consular army

POST-MARIAN LEGION:

1 General

1 First Cohort
800 men

9 Cohorts
500 men each

1 Cavalry (better to use a young general)
120 men

[QuintusSertorius]

PRE-MARIAN ROMAN LEGION:

1 General

1200 Velites represented by:
1 Slinger
1 Skirmisher

1200 Heavy Infantry represented by:
2 Hastati

1200 Heavy Infantry represented by:
2 Principes

600 Heavy Infantry represented by:
1 Triarii

200-300 Cavalry represented by:
1 Cavalry (or young general)

you can double this to get a consular army

This is missing the socii component, no pre-Marian army marched without almost as many again in allied troops. If anything I'd say that would be the Roman part of a full consular army, with some Italian troops making up the rest of the numbers.

Something like:
1 Italian Skirmishers
1 Gallic Slingers
2 Italian Swordsmen
2 Italian Spearmen
1 Gallic Light Cavalry (or whatever else you can find)

[SuleymanGroznii]

Carthaginian army in Italy(phase one-after the addition of celts, but before the italics):

1 general
1 gallic noble cavalry (rectuited only at the arrival in Northern Italy, not from northern Spain or in Southern Galia)
1 gallic light cavalry (the same mention as above)
2 numidian cavalry (you could make it one merc unit and one aor, but it would be easier for game engine reasons to make them both merc or aor; you`ll be able to merge them)
1 scutarii cavalry* (recruited in Spain and preferable with experience already)
1 caetratii cavalry (the same mention as above)
2 berber javelinmen (recruited from North Africa obviously)
1 balearic slingers (mercs with experience)
2 liby phoenicians (one on each flank maybe)
4 gallic swordsmen
1 african elephant(no tower)
2 scutarii falcata infantry
1 cretan archers - they are not supposed to be here, but Osprey(for example) elects to consider the moorish skirmishers at Zama as archers and to guess their presence in Hanniball`s army from the start. Since there are no numidian/moorish archers as aor/mercs in RTR I`ve chosen cretans. If you want you can discard them.

* they are available to Carthage only in RTRPE, not in RTR 6 Gold or previous versions.

Note: the numbers on the left represent the number of each unit type.

Also, if you come from Spain with the army through Gaul I suggest replacing the gallic units with iberians at the start of the expedition and fighting a number of battles in northern Iberia and in Gaul and then at the arrival in Northern Italy merge the iberian units and replace the empty space with gallic units so that you`ll get the numbers above.
It`s just a try, I suppose their could be others. Also, this is inspired from history. You can`t have it very close to it due to engine limitations.

I think this army looks great (and I use it in custom battles; haven't actually tried a Carthage campaign yet), BUT Hannibal brought Sacred Band Cavalry along with him, so you should include at least one unit IMO. I'm listening to some lectures by Prof. Garret Fagan, and he describes the Sacred Band Cavalry being pretty crucial to the attacks on the Roman rear, and Polybius wrote that the cavalry headed by Hasdrubal (Hannibal's brother) wiped out most of the Roman cavalry on the Roman right, went to reinforce the Numidians fighting Italian allied cavalry on the Roman left, and the allies fled once they saw Hasdrubal's charge. Hasdrubal's unit then decided to reinforce the infantry units and attack the Romans' rear. So I'm gonna take some liberty and guess that Hasdrubal was commanding Sacred Band Cavalry :hmmm:

[florin80]

Afaik:
1. the notion of a sacred band cavalry is rather guesswork. It would be fine as a carthaginian heavy cavalry though, but I really don`t know of any source suggesting that Hannibal`s heavy cavalry was anything else then iberian and celtic at Cannae. In Daly`s Cannae iirc he makes an assumption that maybe there were some liby-phoenician cavalry(and that these were heavy cav), but it is again his guess only. Based on their presence in relatively large numbers in Spain in a different occasion. So, in my opinion, the bodyguard unit is enough. It`s a sacred band unit after all. Not that you shouldn`t use it if it makes you happy. It`s just a game and it shouldn`t be otherwise then fun. It`s meant to be played, not studied.
2. Hasdrubal(Barca) was not with Hannibal in Italy. Only Mago. That Hasdrubal is another guy. Not there aren`t lots of them(Hasdrubals) around.

[SuleymanGroznii]

Afaik:
1. the notion of a sacred band cavalry is rather guesswork. [snip] Based on their presence in relatively large numbers in Spain in a different occasion. So, in my opinion, the bodyguard unit is enough. It`s a sacred band unit after all. Not that you shouldn`t use it if it makes you happy. It`s just a game and it shouldn`t be otherwise then fun. It`s meant to be played, not studied.

I wholeheartedly concur. given the potential that RTR has for historical accuracy however, I just find it REALLY fun to nitpick. Plus i like the bigger cavalry units, which you can certainly have with an important family member, but you are obviously guaranteed a big unit by choosing the Sacred Band Cavalry.

2. Hasdrubal(Barca) was not with Hannibal in Italy. Only Mago. That Hasdrubal is another guy. Not there aren`t lots of them(Hasdrubals) around.

Polybius describes Hannibal's army as being led by a Hasdrubal, a Mago (Hannibal's brother, you are correct and I was mistaken about Hasdrubal Barca, who was dead way before any of that), and a Hano at Cannae, in 3.114 of "rise of the roman empire" (or whatever other of the million titles that work goes by).

I took a summer course in college on the Punic Wars (when it was about 90-100 degrees fahrenheit with ungodly amounts of humidity just about every day) taught by a very neurotic, obsessive, and left-brained Classicist, so the Magos, Hasdrubals, Hanos, etc are basically like childhood trauma to me. Having to remember all those guys, even the one (can't remember which one of the 4-5 Punic names he had, must have blocked it out) who may or may not have one person or two people with the same name was just torture...ugh. I got a 97% on the midterm that covered the First Punic War, and though the Second Punic War was way more interesting to me, I just gave up trying to memorize certain names and events. didn't get a bad grade, but my answers, ahem, didn't exactly fill up my bluebook like they did on the midterm.

[SuleymanGroznii]

I wholeheartedly concur. given the potential that RTR has for historical accuracy however, I just find it REALLY fun to nitpick. Plus i like the bigger cavalry units, which you can certainly have with an important family member, but you are obviously guaranteed a big unit by choosing the Sacred Band Cavalry.

BTW, is there anyway to mode the game data in anyway to make the general's units in custom battles larger than the usual 32-40? I just realized "duh, fix the rank in the edu file" while typing this, but I'm concerned that will mess with the in-game settings. I'd like a general's bodyguard to be bigger than 60 soldiers, but that might be cumbersome in the campaign mode...

Any foreseeable problems with changing the size of the general's bodyguard units?

(In particular, I've always felt REALLY silly using a Macedonian general who only has 30 guys backing him up...just urinates all over our favorite narratives of Alexander the Great and his loyal Hetairoi , now doesn't it? I mean, I can just imagine Megas Alexandros going "hold up guys, I'll be right there with my...uh...30...other...guys...aw crap, this sucks..." )

[SuleymanGroznii]

Plutarch describes two different in Parthian armies, one in "Life of Anthony," the other in "Life of Crassus." For the life of me, I can't find the ratio of light/heavy cavalry in "Life of Anthony" right now (just the total size, which Plutarch states was 40,000 horse), but the Parthian army at Carrhae was said to be 9,000 horse archers, 1,000 kataphracts. So, with the size of the game's units, a 9:1 ratio looks like:

8 units of horse archers (104x8=832 total horse archers)
1 unit of kataphracts (832/10= 83.2 total kats...IT'S CLOSE ENOUGH!!! )
(I say you get a mulligan for your general)

...at least I hope that I got all that 5th grade math right

Keeping in mind that he was guesstimating like we are, a full size Parthian army should have something like:

6-8 units of horse Archers
1-3 units of kataphracts
plus your general(s)

I seem to remember reading another battle's figure (maybe it was from "Anthony," and BOY is it driving me crazy not being able to find it) that described a 50/50 ratio of light and heavy cavalry. So (in addition to being really freakin' expensive) THAT should look like:

4 units of horse archers (104x4=416)
5 units of kataphracts (80x5=400)
plus your general(s)

Oddly enough, this article: http://www.historynet.com/magazines/...tml?page=3&c=y

cites Plutarch's figure of Phraates IV's army having 40,000 soldiers, but with "at least a fourth of it cavalry." Though they did gradually use more and more infantry through the years, I think when Plutarch described "40,000 horse," the man meant 40,000 horse!!!

I'll go through a few of my books for info on the Sarmatians, too (cause um...I know how many of you absolutely thrive when playing as the...uh...Sarmatians...).

[Mythos_Ruler]

Is there a thread with Historical Armies already designed, or is this a reboot?

[Sacratus]

There was a thread on the old RTR forums with Historical Army composition. Since the forums are no more, this is a revived version. :O

[SuleymanGroznii]

I may have mentioned it elsewhere on a threat, but here I forgot to mention my recipe for a Caesarian army during the Gallic wars. Its basically Dutch81's post-Marian army (see above), but considering how much a factor German cavalry was according to the sources (including Caesar's own writings, I think), I added the German medium cavalry (which seems to actually be heavy when you look at the data) as a selectable unit. They are a SERIOUS terror, too: good armor, great charge, strong melee attack, great endurance, really nasty javelins, and they're a command unit w/eagle.

I also go back and forth between adding some barbarian archers/missile troops. Right now I have the Gaul Forester Warbands in the mix, which are basically identical in every way to the Thracian/Dacian/Getai and German versions, but a few units of Gallic or German archers, slingers, or peltasts will also do the job.

Oh, and pretend that your second general is Mark Antony, and you'll probably want to keep that between places like this forum and yourself...

[Solaris]

I always like to include Italian troops, but it bugs me that I have to pay for them! Historically the allies had to furnish Rome with troops free of charge (i.e. the Italian peoples would pay for their upkeep), as part of their socii status.

About a post-marian stack, I like to consist my 'legion' of 1 1st legionary first cohort, and 7 early legionary cohorts, that way you can have two 'legions' in a stack plus a general and cavalry and artillery (4 units).

Realistically, if you wanna play with a scale factor 0f 10, i.e. a Roman legion was around 4800 men at full strength, a legion would be around 4 units.

[QuintusSertorius]

I always like to include Italian troops, but it bugs me that I have to pay for them! Historically the allies had to furnish Rome with troops free of charge (i.e. the Italian peoples would pay for their upkeep), as part of their socii status.

Indeed, that's one of those limitations of the engine. Besides which, if you got socii troops for free that would make playing Romans even easier than it already is!

About a post-marian stack, I like to consist my 'legion' of 1 1st legionary first cohort, and 7 early legionary cohorts, that way you can have two 'legions' in a stack plus a general and cavalry and artillery (4 units).

Realistically, if you wanna play with a scale factor 0f 10, i.e. a Roman legion was around 4800 men at full strength, a legion would be around 4 units.

I'd go with one first, 8 early legionary, a couple of auxilia spearmen to cover the flanks against cavalry, a couple of skirmisher/archer units, a couple of cavalry, general and artillery as a complete force. But then I like keeping the Roman part to a minimum, because they're invariably a lot better than anything else you have.

[King Arthur]

Early Macedonian Army

X1 General
X5 Phalanx
X1 Elite Phalanx
X1 Hypaspists
X1 Companion Cavalry
X1 Allied Heavy Cavalry (Thessalians)
X2 Light Infantry
X2 Light Cavalry
X2 Skirmishers (Psiloi)
X4 Allied Light Infantry

They would line up thus:

Light Cavalry----P--S--I--L--O--I----Light Cavalry

Light Inf.--Thessalians--PhalanxX3--Elite Phalanx--Phalanx--Hypaspists--Companion&General--Light Inf.

---------Allied Light Infantry---------