Military Balance

[King of Axum]

I noticed in Medieval 2 Total War the Mongol faction had the best calvary in the game however were lacking a good standing army of infantry which i thought was pretty dumb because many of their foot soldiers came from china and were exceptional soldiers will it be different in BK

[teh.frickin.pope]

As far as I have seen, there hasn't been much talk of changing the Mongol roster for 1.0, and anything past 1.0 won't really be talked about much.

*disclaimer* not in anyway an official answer.

[King of Axum]

amour for low grade infantry The Mongol warrior used to wear Chinese silk underwear, if it could be obtained. One would not normally consider underwear to be military equipment, but the fact is that silk is a very tough substance. If arrows are shot from a larger distance, they will not easily penetrate the silk. Even if an arrow penetrates the human skin, the silk may hold, so that the arrow can be drawn out from the wound by pulling the silk around. This would also prevent poison from entering the bloodstream. Outside the normal clothes, the warrior carried a protective shield of light yet effective leather armor, which was impregnated with a lacquer-like substance in order to make it more impervious to penetration by arrows, swords and knives, and also to protect it against humid weather. Very probably this lacquer was fish glue, which was the strongest and most weather resistant natural material that fits this purpose.

Infantry

There are surviving descriptions documenting the formations and training of Song infantry. Some of these descriptions depict spearmen and swordsmen standing (perhaps they are kneeling) while the archers and crossbowmen fired their shots. Drums were used to give the commands for marching, firing, sitting/kneeling, and other commands. It seems in later Song military manuals that archers and crossbowmen were not mixed with other infantry. Whether this was adhered to by those in command is undetermined. It would seem the generals would see the value of mixing missile troops with spearmen and swordsmen.



The Song were lacking in cavalry due to their failure to secure adequate areas to raise horses from the Khitan Liao and the Tanguts. Since the Song lacked in adequate cavalry, the song developed weapons, tactics and training for infantry to counter heavily armored enemy cavalry formations. One of their innovations was a training program using two poles spaced approximately 2 feet apart, one short and one long, simulating the leg and head of a horse. The infantry were trained to use their zhan ma dao or mei jian (see next paragraph for a description), and bend low, swinging at the lower post taking out the horse’s legs then turn swinging high aiming for the head of the horse. The Song employed tie ji li or caltrops in front of these infantry to slow the impetus of the cavalry charge.

The Song Dynasty invented many different weapons for the infantry to deal with heavily armored cavalry. One such weapon was the zhan ma dao best described as a two handed “horse chopping sword.” In the Official History of the Song Dynasty it states the sword was massed produced in the tens of thousands. Another bladed weapon used in similar fashion was the mei jian or eye brow tip glaive similar to the Japanese nagamaki or the blade used by the elves in The Lord of the Rings. Yue Fei, a famous Song general, used anti-cavalry troops trained with a large two handed axe or Ko. In the mid 1100’s Yue Fei, used these highly trained anti-cavalry troops, defeated a Jin army and destroyed 70% of the Jin cavalry. The armor worn by troops specializing in anti-cavalry was well made. It consisted of shan wen jia or mountain pattern armor. See photo’s 1 and 2. Shan wen jia armor offered good protection against missile weapons and hand held weapons. Whether these troops carried a bow or not is undetermined. The Song considered the composite bow an important weapon and some sources imply that the infantry did carry it in addition to their sword or axe.

Other weapons created in the Song dynasty were the da fu or great axe – halberd and the guan dao, basically a glaive on a long handle similar to the Japanese naginata. How these troops were armored is unclear. They may have worn the shan wen jia or mountain patter armor mixed with the more common lamellar armor. It appears these troops supported the more highly trained anti-cavalry troops with the zhan ma dao, ko, and mei jian.

Spears and swords were very common during the Song dynasty. The length of the spears is not standardized in any of the texts reviewed. In Peter Lorge’s dissertation it states the length of the longer spears were 5.5 meters to 5.7 meters long or 18.3 feet to 19.1 feet. Extra long spears were called giang. Shorter spears were used, and some were thrown. A common sword used by infantry was the shoudao, a single handed single edged sword. Most spearmen and swordsmen carried a shield. There are very few depictions of shields but they appear to be rectangular shaped for the spearmen with some having a V cut shape at the top or an inverted V cut at the top, while others having a shallow V cut shape on the sides looking similar to an hour glass but with straight edges. It seems those carrying the longer spears (pikes) did not carry shields. A common shield for the swordsmen was smaller and round, making it easier to use in combat. Shields were often painted with a terrifying face to frighten the enemy. Such a display of shield art would make for a pretty army. Some sources indicate swordsmen and spearmen were mixed together, swordsmen making up the first rank and spearmen supporting behind. These troops made up the bulk of the army, but were not the quality of those specializing in anti-cavalry tactics and they did not have an extensive training program as the specialist troops.

There are several types of crossbows used during the Song dynasty. The most powerful was the “Shenbi nu” or the Divine crossbow, also translated as Divine Elbow crossbow, possibly an arbalest. Records indicate the maximum range of the Shenbi nu was 460 meters with an effective range of 150 meters. Other crossbows had a maximum range of 320 meters. There were three methods of loading a crossbow; first was to place the butt against the hip and pull the string back with their arms, second was the use of the foot stirrup and the third was to sit down and pull with their back and arms. Another famous crossbow was the “Cho Ko Nu” or repeating crossbow. This weapon was not known for its long range or it’s accuracy but was well known for its rapid rate of fire. There are several accounts of troops armed with the Shenbi nu or Cho Ko nu stopping a cavalry charge. The Song considered the crossbow an important weapon and spent time training units to make up for the slow rate of fire. The crossbowmen would line up in three ranks; the first rank firing, the second rank were those advancing to replace the first rank, and the third rank were those reloading. Essentially creating the volley fire formation used by European troops armed with muskets in the 18th century. Other larger siege crossbows such as the triple crossbow were used during siege operations.

Although the crossbow was considered the most important bow against cavalry the infantry still used the large composite bow. The maximum range of the composite bow used by infantry was around 256 meters. Accounts I have found describe mixed units with the archers behind the crossbowmen. One account states the spearmen made up the first rank and would kneel allowing the crossbowmen to fire. While the crossbowmen were reloading the archers, in the third rank, would fire. It seems the archers killed more of the enemy than the crossbowmen did. As I mentioned above Song military manuals indicated missile weapons in each unit were not mixed. It could be they did not mix with those trained in anti-cavalry tactics but did mix with those with spears and swords. The maximum range of the composite bow used by infantry was around 256 meters.

Archers and crossbowmen as well as spearmen and swordsmen wore armor called buren jia or foot armor. As described in the Wu Jing Zong Yao Song Military Manual, armor for spearmen consisted of 3782 plates weighing 32-35kgs taking the blacksmith 120 days to make. Armor for the archers weighed 28-33kgs, and for crossbowmen it weighed 22-27kgs with 1825 iron plates. Another form of armor used by archers was paper armour 1-3 inches thick called zhi jia. When wet it became stronger and offered good protection against arrows and the cold but if it wasn’t maintained properly it became useless.

Another form of armor was xouzi jia or locked chain armor and, liansui jia or linked chain armor. Such armor was not abundant during the Song Dynasty but was used by those of higher rank. The biography of Yue Fei mentions he used a form of chain mail, yet a statue of him does not show him wearing it, rather it depicts him wearing the shan wen kia or mountain pattern armor. While armor was important for infantry during the Song dynasty but as to how many troops within the army wore it is unclear. It is clear than many of the troops used it and plenty was available.

the song military tactics for infantry was later completly utilized by the mongols


Please use the edit feature instead of triple posting in the future. Thanks.

~Sher Khan

[Rex Armeniae]

The mongols are a horde in the game. This is a game. And a horde made out of loads of HA and cavalries is good. Its real. It gives a touch out of, whoah there comes those fierce mongol horsemen. And they have infantry, they dont have Alot of them.. and they shouldnt. But the ones they do have are pretty good. So i dont rly understand what ur asking.
Each faction must have some kind of lacks, and another power. In this case, alot of cavalry and HA based army. And lacks infantry.
Thats balance.

[King of Axum]

yes the mongols were veiwed as a horde but in reality they were an organized civilization. their leaders like Genghis Khan always looked for new innovative was to take on new rivials. Alot of the battles in China and in the Mideast wasn't just on plains but also, he dealt with many sieges aswell. and we all know a successful siege you must have a very good attacking force

[Rex Armeniae]

Off course it was alot more then just cavalry in Reality, but this is how they are presented in the game

[King of Axum]

if only i got a dollar for every time you said GAME

[IrAr]

You'd have two dollars (for the emboldened game), or better yet 675 (roughly) dram! Yay, dram!