RTR and the lack of the Republican Feel

[Lacessit1]

Hello folks! New to twcenter, but not exactly new to the game. This is just a little train of thought I had the other night, any comments are appreciated.

I have owned RTW ever since it came out and loved it to bits. As a kid, and even as a teenager, I have always been interested (maybe obsessed is a better word) with Roman history, the Punic Wars, Hannibal, Pyrrhus, Marius, Sulla, Vercingetorix, Caesar and all the other great men of the period. RTW was the game I had been waiting for all my life.

As you can probably gather, I LIKED Vanilla. I played it till MIITW came out, and when I'd played that for some months, I just came back to RTW.

After all this time on vanilla, I decided it was time for some mods. I tried a few, RTR, came out on top. It felt like a whole new game! I had to subdue provinces before I could recruit, the units were much more, well... Realistic! A great mod, and a great gaming experience.

But I think it misses out on one big gameplay aspect that vanilla did much better. The feeling that you are in a republic, and eventually striving to obtain supreme power. The mess of the civil wars, the bit where Roman gets pitted against Roman. In the RTR FAQ, it is explained that the mod does away with the 'Family faction system' because it is utterly unrealistic. Of course that's true. It's not as if three or more families dominated Roman politics in an almost feudal system for more than two centuries. But still I think that it was the best way to simulate the 'Republican Feel' I was talking about. It also incorporated the Cursus Honorum, the complete indepence of the Senate, the State if you will, from any faction... A great aspect of vanilla, that was lost in RTR.

So does anyone else feel this way? That RTR is a great mod, but lacks this particular aspect? Are there any remedial submods? Discuss!

[Tony83]

Actually, that's a very good point you make. The three family system may be unhistorical but it certainly does a lot to spice up the mid to late campaign when, usually, in a unified scenario Rome is such a leviathan as to be unstoppable by that stage. As a trade off between history and gameplay I think CA were quite canny.

Having said that, RTR offers a different perspective and delights in other ways. Instead of the tactical infighting of the Roman state, RTR offers a more strategic view on how Rome would have been viewed by its neighbours. How, despite it's internal wranglings, it would have presented a united front to outside threats.

While I mostly play RTR or EB, depending on mood, I still dip into vanilla now and then. It just reminds me how the game really knocked my socks off the first time round, despite the incendiary pigs, screeching women and head-hurlers!

I've always found CA's fantasy units to be such a laugh that I have to love them for their sense of humour. I'm amazed that they never went the full hog and did elephant mounted onagers - lol.

With some CA bashing appears to be a full time hobby, but honestly, where is the competition?

[Quinctius Cincinnatus]

Nobody has the right to blame CA. They did awesome job. And of course, the family system was way more fun. The civil war (Roman-Roman) was hugely fun. They need money for their next (great) games, so they need breath-taking features.

I am quite like you,Lacessit1. I was a huge vanilla fan, till I discovered that mods made so much more out of it.
And yes, the family system is unrealistic. But I think that in the next version of RTR, RTR VII, there will be a very good solution for the civil wars.

QC,
RTR: PR.

[MasterOfThessus]

On a side note, there is several mods for PE that gives you the three roman families and the senate back.

So to get maximised gameplay from RTR, try one of thoose

[Lacessit1]

On a side note, there is several mods for PE that gives you the three roman families and the senate back.

So to get maximised gameplay from RTR, try one of thoose

Thanks for the nice reactions guys! Appreciate it! Any helpful links maybe to these mods?

[arflynn23]

I too awaited RTW my whole life and only regret that it came after wife and children... Now I can't commit the time I'd like or even need. I found RTR early on and almost immediately switched over. Some of the more obvious issues with Vanilla drove me up a wall. Personally I have to say that I don't miss the 3 families. It just didn't play well for me and I was glad to see a unified rome. But I do see your point and it would be fascinating to have more focus on the internal issues of republican rule. Hmm... I wonder how else that could be modded.

But I must say that I'm glad someone else was out there dreaming of the Republic and wondering when the technology would be there to make the best game ever. 2004 was a great year! Only took 20 years of my gaming to reach nirvana

[pseudocaesar]

you might actually be interested in SPQR total war. it is a total conversion, but has the senate in it.

[Lacessit1]

you might actually be interested in SPQR total war. it is a total conversion, but has the senate in it.

Welll...I actually tried SPQR before RTR, but I liked RTR better. Which is why I think it's a pity the republic feel has been omitted from RTR. It could've been even better!

[Mr_Ace]

RTR is not specifically a Rome-based mod. It is a realism mod bent to bring out the realism in all aspects, including the factions in the game. So if you wish to bring out the best as a Rome-based player, chasing for a Rome-based mod, I would suggest SPQR or EB....as previous people have mentioned.

Which is why I'am currently finishing my Macedonian campaign, then switching over to SPQR for a realistic Roman feel.

[KALI]

What would be really cool is if every faction had a ruler or body of rulers like the senate who dished out missions etc and had counter factions that vied directly for power.
Including the senate and three family system almost seems unfair to the other factions.... I have to admit I did enjoy the civil wars and the missions, although 3 roman factions tended to mean 3 x the speed of roman expansion.

[Tony83]

I remember the first time I played Egypt and the dread I felt when my spies spotted the Scipii's legions coming across the desert to attack me.

Imagine my delight and relief when my Pharaoh's Guard spearmen and archers, aided by the ubiquitous desert axemen and Numidian cavalry, saw them off in a fine manner.

@ Kali

I'm not too sure I'd go much for the idea of other factions having a Senate-like body doling out missions . The Council of Nobles in Med II is the same sort of idea and I find them a blooming nuisance I would quite happily live without.

I think the main function of the Senate was to provide some strategic guidance to complete novices of the game and period.

[KALI]

@ Kali

I'm not too sure I'd go much for the idea of other factions having a Senate-like body doling out missions . The Council of Nobles in Med II is the same sort of idea and I find them a blooming nuisance I would quite happily live without.

I think the main function of the Senate was to provide some strategic guidance to complete novices of the game and period.

Of course this is just my taste. I like the idea of missions as it makes the gaming experience more interactive. But in RTW they do follow a rather a-historic pattern and they can interfere with particular style's of play. However missions can be triggered by certain events as in EB. They can be made to be more in tune with history or at least your chosen route of expansion. I also liked the senate for the rise to power aspect and the popularity with the people feature.

[Tony83]

Hehe - don't get me wrong. I think the Senate can be fun in the early stages of the game but it's cool that they can be "done away with" once they've outlived their purpose.

I remember early "three family" versions of RTR that gave the Senate a number of uber-stacks, to stop people wiping them out too soon in the game.

[Gabriel A]

RTR is not specifically a Rome-based mod. It is a realism mod bent to bring out the realism in all aspects, including the factions in the game. So if you wish to bring out the best as a Rome-based player, chasing for a Rome-based mod, I would suggest SPQR or EB....as previous people have mentioned.

Which is why I'am currently finishing my Macedonian campaign, then switching over to SPQR for a realistic Roman feel.

Surely you jest.

SPQR and realism are as oil and water. SPQR can be a fun mod, if you like giant battles of CPU crushing death, however by it's own admission SPQR does not have as a goal historically accurate units or gameplay.

[morteduzionism]

But still I think that it was the best way to simulate the 'Republican Feel'...It also incorporated the Cursus Honorum, the complete indepence of the Senate, the State if you will, from any faction... A great aspect of vanilla, that was lost in RTR....So does anyone else feel this way? That RTR is a great mod, but lacks this particular aspect?

Yes, I agree. It is a great mod and it does completely lack this aspect. At various times I've been tempted to play Vanilla simply to reexperience the Senate.

I've read the FAQ's...I still don't completely understand why they got rid of the Senate.

[morteduzionism]

Couldn't the Senate just be an unplayable/unkillable faction(for a specific amount of time) allied with the human player similar to how Ptolemy and Nubia start the game(Military access granted)?

Leave the Cursus Honorum(i.e. Vanilla) so that characters are still appointed and receive the bonuses(+ influence, etc)

Instead of 'missions' the Senate makes suggestions: Something must be done about Carthage...This outrage by Illyria must not go unpunished...Gauls must be punished, etc etc etc

When the Senate/Roma becomes available for conquest make it like capturing a wonder, providing a law/order bonus to all cities. In addition to that, make it so that the human player gets EXTREMELY LARGE morale penalties when fighting against Senate forces...one other thing capturing Rome should give: +1000 denarii/turn to symbolize the increase in wealth from becoming the ruler of Rome

[Turk]

There is a Roman Faction Mod for RTR Gold

[KALI]

Hmmmm,
but would you go back to gold after Platinum on BI.exe with met/nav.

[morteduzionism]

Hmmmm,
but would you go back to gold after Platinum on BI.exe with met/nav.

If you're a fool and/or crazy...then and only then...lol

[Tony83]

Lol - then I'm both, 'cos I've got a pretty neat Greek campaign going on 6 at the moment.

RTR 6 Gold was a damned good game when it was released and it's still a damned good game.