Inshallah

[Farnan]

Inshallah is Arabic for "If God Wills"

I have chose this for the topic as this seems more prominent in Islam than Christianity.

Do you believe that there is free will or do you believe that free will is just an illusion and God controls a persons every action. Or do you believe it is somewhere in between?

My opinion is this:

God knows every action in our future (that whole all knowing aspect) so all of our actions are already destined for us. However I also believe that since we cannot see the future we do not know what actions are destined for us, so we have free will. On the same hand, God does have a hand in the actions that we take and actively influences the world. Thus we have free will, but God knows the outcome of our free will. This free will is not absolute however as God subtely makes an impact on the world. If you wish me to explain I will.

Please comment on how you feel for the subject. However please refrain from making comments such as:

"OMG theists are stuped!!!!111!!!1 me atheist so me so smart."

Try to keep your answers philosophical.

[removeduser_487563287433]

'With the grace of God'

'But for the grace of God, there goes us.'

[IndianPrince]

I personally believe that life is a chain of events. And that sometimes those chain of events affect us & our actions others. Our own actions may affect us as well & it is all a very jumbled system not controlled by anyone yet perfect enough not to collapse. That doesn't give an excuse for me to blame all the bad things upon faith because there is a chance of me causing the damage to myself & thus i shall always assume so, because that gives me a deterent to do it again in the future
Some may think of it as naive & ignorant but its MY opinion & i adhere to it

Prince

[IamthePope]

Does a person have free will? Biggest question in the history of Philosophy with the exception of "is Truth knowable?" and "is there a God?".

I concur with the above. People have free will, without which a person cannot be held accountable for their own salvation. While God simultaneously has infinite understanding of all that is and ever shall be. It may seem a contradiction, but it is in fact a very complex theological and philosophical question without end.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Well, since I'm an atheist, I don't think there is any god to control anything. So it would be hard for me to even think it's feasible for a god to control the events of life. Also, I believe, if I were to speak from the viewpoint of a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, I think I would have to say God doesn't.

It is taught that humans sin because we are given a freedom to choose how we wish to act, whether we wish to follow God's teachings and worship him or whether we rather stray from the path. It would not make any sense to punish a human if you predetermined he was going to sin.

God can't be omniscient and fair. If he knows what our actions will be and what the outcome will be, there would be no reason for him to punish his subjects. That is what I believe is one of the many faults of the idea of a omnipotent/omniscient supreme being that punishes sinners.

[IamthePope]

God can't be omniscient and fair. If he knows what our actions will be and what the outcome will be, there would be no reason for him to punish his subjects. That is what I believe is one of the many faults of the idea of a omnipotent/omniscient supreme being that punishes sinners.

It's not so much that God 'punish'es his subjects as that punish ourselves through our distancing ourselves from God's love and truth through Sin. In God's love, he granted us Free will, without which we would be slaves to God. We chose to eat from the Tree of Knowlegde and sin entered the world. It is only God's love that allows us the freedom to Sin.

[Sétanta]

God knows our future. We don't. If we don't know what decision we are going to make, then we have the choice to make whatever decision we want. God doesn't choose for us, we do. He just knows what choice we are going to make.


But I do think that God has goals that he wishes to have the world achieve and uses human intermediaries to acheive that goal (not prophets, just tools).

[Condell]

I dont believe in god, therefore i dont believe there is a will out there other than my own that is guiding me to do something, deciding my own path so to say

when you take god out of the equation, it gets very complicated;

if free will is the ability to do what you want, then again why do you want what you want, do i decide what i want, or what i want is how i decide.

I think it is the latter, how i act is controlled by what i want and it is how i decide to act in a certain way. My will, my actions, are controlled by me but they are subject to and shaped by four main things so to say.

these are values, motivation, opportunities and evaluation

Values basically consist of everything i use as a criteria for making decisions. What i think is proper to do when i am going to act in a certain way. My beliefs, my feelings, my morals and all that.

Motivation is; when I feel compelled to, want to do something, and this affects my will, my actions. Motivation to act in a certain way is either there or it is not, you cant want to want something without wanting it.

Opportunity is basically the time when i get to chose or act in a certain way and think through a set of options and pick one.

Evaluation is when i go through each set of option, a comparasion so to say and decide which option/opportunity is going to satisfy my values and the motivation at that point.

for example if i am feeling angry about something my actions would be determined by a lesser set of options, since i am not rationally thinking.

If i am angry and my monitor is not displaying right, i might punch the monitor rather than checking the cables which how would i act in a calm state.

But anger is a value in which i have to satisfy when the opportunity is there so i punch the monitor and anger is motivating me to act in that way.

it got too long i should just stop now

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I don't understand the thinking that an omniscient God that knows what choices we're going to make and what the outcome would be would punish us when he knows we will act against his wishes.

That is like building a fire, then to give the fire freedom, you put a trail of gasoline leading up to your house knowing full well what would happen, then being mad when the gasoline goes aflame and catches your house on fire.

If you knew what the actions of your creation will be, then is it the creation's fault when it performs the action? Sure, fire doesn't have free will, but then neither do humans if God already knows what we're going to do.

A better example: a dog.

You raise a dog and then tell it not to eat your steak (under the premise that the dog is untrained). You then let the dog get close to the steak, and it eats it. Can you get mad at the dog even though you knew it would do that? Sure. Would it make sense? No.

[Farnan]

I see it as reading a biography of a dead person. You, living in the present, know how he's going to die and what he has done and what affect it has. Does that make the individual's actions less good or less evil?

It is a good analogy to compare God to a historian in this aspect. Like a historian he already knows how events transpired, yet still like a historian he can judge how people acted during those events.

To Condell: An interesting theory.

This thread is not just for Theists, but also for those who wish to discuss the concept of free will through philosophy and psychology.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Historians didn't create the person they are reading about, and they can't punish them for their acts while knowing full well what they'll do. If you're an Abrahamic theist, your God does both of those.

[MasterAdnin]

I have expressed my thoughts on this before.

In Islam we are taught that mankind has free will. This means that we have the ability to choose whatever we want, but Allah knows what we will choose. The task Allah has given is not to choose the proper path all the time, but to understand where we sin and to understand why we are wrong.

In Islam we are also taught of Aql which basically means, intelligence or understanding. Allah gave us this so that we could use Al Quran and our minds to see what is right and what is wrong. We are given guides as well, the 12 Infallible Imams to help us in this task. We must use our Aql to try to judge what is right and what is wrong, what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. We must also use our Aql to benefit mankind.

So basically my view is we have a sort of free will, but Allah knows the outcome always. Our task is to determine right from wrong and to follow what Allah has prescribed for us, through Aql, as best as we can.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[Dayman]

Oh we have free will, but it's limited by money, law, society, politics, etc. I can take a crap in front of Philadelphia City Hall, but I'd better expect my ass to be in jail.

And if there were an omnipotent god, every action would be known beforehand. So in that scenario is that free will? Or just a controlled scenario scripted out in the mind of a deity? I don't really see that as free will. That idea seems to reduce existence to a train running along a track. We can switch tracks sometimes, but the big guy still knows where it leads.

[MasterAdnin]

And if there were an omnipotent god, every action would be known beforehand. So in that scenario is that free will? Or just a controlled scenario scripted out in the mind of a deity? I don't really see that as free will. That idea seems to reduce existence to a train running along a track. We can switch tracks sometimes, but the big guy still knows where it leads.

If you gave a 10 year old child a choice to eat either ice cream, poop, or dirt, you would already know which he is going to eat, ice cream, but he still had a choice on which to eat.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Lawrence of Arabia]

If you gave a 10 year old child a choice to eat either ice cream, poop, or dirt, you would already know which he is going to eat, ice cream, but he still had a choice on which to eat.

Salaam,
Adnan

Except that isn't comparable.

Ice cream - delicious dessert
Poop - Not a food, doesn't smell or taste good
Dirt - Not a food, hard to chew, doesn't taste good.

While decisions can be interpreted as right or wrong depending on the person, however eating poop and dirt is rarely a favorite of 10 year-olds.

[MasterAdnin]

Except that isn't comparable.

Ice cream - delicious dessert
Poop - Not a food, doesn't smell or taste good
Dirt - Not a food, hard to chew, doesn't taste good.

While decisions can be interpreted as right or wrong depending on the person, however eating poop and dirt is rarely a favorite of 10 year-olds.

While true, it was just an example. My meaning was that Allah knows what we will choose. A better example would be asking a child to eat ice cream or spinach. While spinach is good for you, the child would obviously choose the one which tastes better. This would relate perfectly because in all cases Allah knows what is good for us, yet we choose the one which seems better at the moment instead of looking into the future and seeing the consequences of our actions and seeing which will lead to a better future.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Chaigidel]

there is only gods will --- things only happen in gods will-- you may think this means you dont have free will but it does not-- it simply means that the very substance of your choices are gods will given to you-- this is how we are the children of god. all choices you have ever made and ever will make god willed you to make.

[Irishman]

While true, it was just an example. My meaning was that Allah knows what we will choose. A better example would be asking a child to eat ice cream or spinach. While spinach is good for you, the child would obviously choose the one which tastes better. This would relate perfectly because in all cases Allah knows what is good for us, yet we choose the one which seems better at the moment instead of looking into the future and seeing the consequences of our actions and seeing which will lead to a better future.

The disanalogy here is that you are making an informed assumption as to the most likely outcome of the child's decision. This child could very well have had a horrible ice cream incident and would jump for the spinach.

The point is, you could (however unlikely) be wrong.

God CANNOT be wrong, he is not making an educated guess, he KNOWS. So either he has seen it happen, or he causes it to happen, either way, our free will is simply an illusion.

So basically my view is we have a sort of free will, but Allah knows the outcome always. Our task is to determine right from wrong and to follow what Allah has prescribed for us, through Aql, as best as we can.

But does Allah not know already if you will determine right and wrong adaquetely, thus the problem still remains. He knows if you will interperate it right, and thus, even your analysis of the Koran is predetermined.

From what you have said, it appears that free will is simply an illusion (though a very convincing one), yet it is nothing more. We are all pre-destined for hell or heaven before God created our souls.

[jankren]

I like the Arabic saying "It is written ..."

[David Deas]

Inshallah is Arabic for "If God Wills"

I have chose this for the topic as this seems more prominent in Islam than Christianity.

Do you believe that there is free will or do you believe that free will is just an illusion and God controls a persons every action. Or do you believe it is somewhere in between?

My opinion is this:

God knows every action in our future (that whole all knowing aspect) so all of our actions are already destined for us. However I also believe that since we cannot see the future we do not know what actions are destined for us, so we have free will. On the same hand, God does have a hand in the actions that we take and actively influences the world. Thus we have free will, but God knows the outcome of our free will. This free will is not absolute however as God subtely makes an impact on the world. If you wish me to explain I will.

I always have a difficult time receiving a sensible explanation about why Christians believe these things of their God when the Bible itself makes a lie out of these ideas.

The Christian God could not have possibly known everything because he continually found himself in situations where he he was forced to run experiments on mankind to attain information. Throughout the Bible we see God becoming a victim of Murphy's law much more often than an individual who actually knew the future logically would. I'm not certain whether you're simply ignoring the fact that the Christian God could not have known everything while also requiring experiments to be run in order to attain information about mankind? Or whether you're getting the idea that your God somehow knows everything while simultaneously *not* knowing everything? I don't know. Perhaps being omni-potent and omniscient includes God's ability to make a rock so heavy God cannot lift it, in addition to God knowing what God also doesn't know? Outrageous. But either way it doesn't make sense for us to claim that the Christian God knew everything while minimizing the fact that he also often *failed* his stated objectives. Thats inherently self-contradictory. All of these things are self-contradictory.