Shared understanding of Life Everlasting

[IamthePope]

Eternal life: Proofs by Thomas Aquinas and Julius Evola

Here are a selection of quotes from Thomas Aquinas's Shorter Summa and Julius Evola's revolt against the modern world that seem to support the theosophic concept that the people of tradition, and indeed all people, have an understanding of the nature of life everlasting-a transcendent intellectual and spiritual communion with God who is the first cause and root of all knowleged and truth.

“Man's consummation consists in the attainment of his last end, which is perfect happiness; and this consists in the vision of God. The Beatific Vision entails immutability in the intellect and will. As regards the intellect, it's questing ceases when it come into contact with the first cause, in which all truth can be known. The will's variability ceases too; for when it reaches its last end, in which is contained the fullness of all goodness, it finds nothing further to be desired... The final consummation of man consists of perfect repose or unchangableness as regard to intellect and will."

Here Aquinas summarizes an explanation of the Beatific Vision, that is the Christian conception of life everlasting in communion with God. It's interesting to note the parralells between the Christian/Abrahamic conception of eternal life and the Platonic and Gnostic understandings. All three traditions suppose that God as the first cause and prime mover is synonymous with truth and absolute understanding. Aquinas seems to be echoing these traditions when he posits that the lack of a corporeal form allows the dead to enter into perfect harmony with all truth and knowledge.

“we showed earlier that the idea of immortality involves immutability. As motion causes time, in which priority and posteriority are discerned, so the cessation of motion puts a stop to the priority and posteritiority; and so nothing remains but eternity, which is the simultaneous whole. Therefore in his final consummation man attains eternal life, not only in the sense that he lives an immortal life in his soul- but also in the sense that he is brought to the perfection of immobility.”

Here Aquinas shows that the soul in the absence of a corporeal form naturally enters into eternal life and communion or disassociation with God based on the sin or grace of the soul in question.

Julius Evola uses an analysis of ancient traditions and archetypes to proove the existence of life everlasting as revealed through tradition, the arbiter of truth in Evola's thought.

"The belief that everyone's soul is immortal is rather odd; Very little evidence can be found in the world of Tradition”

“According to esoteric teachings, at the death of the body an ordinary person is reduced to a shadow that is itself destined to be dissolved after a more or less lengthy period of time, culminating in what is called the “second death”

“the Egyptian tradition referred to those who are damned in the afterlife judgment as “twice dead”. They become victims of the infernal monster Aman(“the Devourer”) or Am-mit(“Corpse Eater”).”

“the souls of the deceased continued to exist in the 'dii' manes into whom they were dissolved, but also in those forces of the stock, the race, or the family in which the life of these 'dii' manes was manifested and perpetuated.”

Here Evola differs from the Christian conception of immortality however subtlely as he denies the eternal existence of those damned to Hades/Hell.

“the Heroes or demigods to whom the higher castes and the noble families of traditional antiquity traced their lineage were beings who at death(unlike most people or those who had been defeated in the trials of the afterlife) did not emanate a “shadow” or a larva of an ego that was eventually destined to die away anyway; instead they were beings who had achieved self-subservient, transcendent, and incorruptible life of a “God”. They were those who had “overcome the second death”. This was possible because they had more or less directly imposed their own vital force [and changed their nature through the transcendent meaning of sacrifice]. The ancient Egyptian tradition clearly articulated the task of creating out of the Ka(another name for “double” or “Demon”) some kind of new incorruptible body(sahu) that was supposed to replace the physical body and “stand on it's feet in an invisible dimension”.In other traditions it is possible to find identical concept under the name of “immortal body”, “body of glory”, or “resurrection body”. [These Gods among men] retained their soul and body in an indissoluble unity, this should not be understood as a coarse materialistic representation, but as the symbolic expression of the idea of the “immortal body” and the condition for immortality.

The idea of self subservient, transcendent, and incorruptible life of a “God” echos all three of the aforementioned philosophical/religious traditions(Christianity,Platonism,Gnosticism) as well as the Dharmic (Hindu-Buddist) understanding of enlightenment that frees the soul from eternal return and reincarnation.

“the Egyptian sahu, created by the rite, thanks to which the deceased can go on to live in the company of the solar gods, indicates that the body that achieved a high degree of knowledge, power, and glory and that has thus become everlasting and incorruptible.”

“There is a very suggestive Vedic formula: “leaving behind every fault, go back home. Filled with splendor, be reunited with your body” The Christian dogma of the “resurrection of the flesh” that will take place on the day of judgment is the last echo of this idea, which can be traced back to prehistoric times”

“In these instances, death did not represent an end but a fulfillment. It was a triumphal death bestowing immortality... people saw in the elders, who were closer to death, the manifestation of the divine force that was thought to achieve full liberation at death”

There seems to be a remarkable similarity between the various threads of human understanding of eternal life. Tradition differs depending on whether the soul returns and is reincarnated or is judged eternally(Platonic and Hindu/Buddhist understanding posit the eternal return of the soul). But all traditions seem to share an understanding of the “solar path” which leads to an immortal communion with the Gods.

“thus as far as the destiny of the soul is concerned, there are two opposite paths. The first is the “Path of the Gods”, also known as the “solar path” or Zeus's path, which leads to the bright dwelling of the immortals... The other is that trodden by those who do not survive in a real way, and who slowly yet inexorably dissolve back into their original stocks, into the “totems”... this is the life of Hades/Hell, of the “infernals”, of the “Nifhlheim”, of the chtomic dieties. This teaching is also found in the Hindu tradition where the expression “path of the Gods”, and “paths of the ancestors”. It is said also: “There are two paths, one bright and the other dark, are considered eternal in the universe. In the former, man goes out and then comes back; in the latter he keeps on returning”

“To free human beings from the dominion of totems; to strengthen them; to address them to the fulfillment of a spiritual form and a limit; and to bring them in invisible way to the line of influences capable of creating a destiny of heroic and liberating immortality-this was the task of an aristocratic cult.”

So how is it that modern man disavows any knowledge of Everlasting life when the totality of history and weight of Tradition are overwhelming advocates of it. Philosophy seems to indicate it and science cannot proove the negative. Is there not life everlasting?

[Rush Limbaugh]

So how is it that modern man disavows any knowledge of Everlasting life when the totality of history and weight of Tradition are overwhelming advocates of it. Philosophy seems to indicate it and science cannot proove the negative. Is there not life everlasting?

Because all religions are built on one an another to some extent. The same stories are passed down but changed over time and by different cultures. And there is ever lasting life. Its called history . Maybe not for us all however. But we are a part of it.

[Earl of Rochester]

So how is it that modern man disavows any knowledge of Everlasting life when the totality of history and weight of Tradition are overwhelming advocates of it.

So humans have a natural yearning to never die then it must be true that we won't?

[IamthePope]

So humans have a natural yearning to never die then it must be true that we won't?

Or an inherent understanding of the divine, preserved by tradition, that resounds in every advanced religious heritage. I'm thinking you didn't read the quotes. They're really good

[removeduser_487563287433]

There is no evidence of an after-life for obvious reasons. Anything that says otherwise is fiction.

[Silver Guard]

Originally Posted by Thomas Aquinas, Shorter Summa p.168
“Man's consummation consists in the attainment of his last end, which is perfect happiness; and this consists in the vision of God. The Beatific Vision entails immutability in the intellect and will. As regards the intellect, it's questing ceases when it come into contact with the first cause, in which all truth can be known. The will's variability ceases too; for when it reaches its last end, in which is contained the fullness of all goodness, it finds nothing further to be desired... The final consummation of man consists of perfect repose or unchangableness as regard to intellect and will."

This assumes far too much to be considered a proof. Without the immortality of the soul the mind still finds a place in which it desires nothing when it reaches death, as it is not in a state to care about anything. Very feeble. There is no need to illogically assume the above thoughts that God and the mind are linked as above.

Originally Posted by Thomas Aquinas, Shorter Summa p.168
“we showed earlier that the idea of immortality involves immutability. As motion causes time, in which priority and posteriority are discerned, so the cessation of motion puts a stop to the priority and posteritiority; and so nothing remains but eternity, which is the simultaneous whole. Therefore in his final consummation man attains eternal life, not only in the sense that he lives an immortal life in his soul- but also in the sense that he is brought to the perfection of immobility.”

This is refuted by an earlier argument concerning souls I have already produced to you, that of splitting and merging of embryos, showing how the soul itself is not immutable, if it exists at all. It also produces the idea that upon death the person becomes utterly immobile. Both physically and mentally this is not true, as both deteriorate in time, and can be moved about. Spiritually it is also untrue, as the soul is either changeable or it is not, and as we have seen it must be in order to exist, thus never reaching his state of immobility.

Here Aquinas shows that the soul in the absence of a corporeal form naturally enters into eternal life and communion or disassociation with God based on the sin or grace of the soul in question.

I'm doubting that you understood that excerpt at all from this.

Originally Posted by Julius Evola, Revolt against the modern world p. 48-52
"The belief that everyone's soul is immortal is rather odd; Very little evidence can be found in the world of Tradition”

“According to esoteric teachings, at the death of the body an ordinary person is reduced to a shadow that is itself destined to be dissolved after a more or less lengthy period of time, culminating in what is called the “second death”

“the Egyptian tradition referred to those who are damned in the afterlife judgment as “twice dead”. They become victims of the infernal monster Aman(“the Devourer”) or Am-mit(“Corpse Eater”).”

“the souls of the deceased continued to exist in the 'dii' manes into whom they were dissolved, but also in those forces of the stock, the race, or the family in which the life of these 'dii' manes was manifested and perpetuated.”

No proof included, just theological discussion on the subject. As with all the further excerpts.

So how is it that modern man disavows any knowledge of Everlasting life when the totality of history and weight of Tradition are overwhelming advocates of it. Philosophy seems to indicate it and science cannot proove the negative. Is there not life everlasting?

What philosophy? None that I know of, nothing points to immortality, or even the existence of the soul except the various religious teaching which preach it, which having no backing cannot be used as evidence in agreement. History is not total, it has had a beginning, for humans and for life, and will one day have an end, also for both.

Your title is misleading, there is only one so-called proof in that entire post, and one which is very weak at that.

[Irishman]

First of all, neither of these were proofs, pope.

These "proofs" of yours operated on the assumption of a divinity AND a soul, and thus are not sound (as this is much debated). Instead, all these things have proven is what would happen if there was eternal life (ie. Aquinas' second segment.

So how is it that modern man disavows any knowledge of Everlasting life when the totality of history and weight of Tradition are overwhelming advocates of it. Philosophy seems to indicate it and science cannot proove the negative. Is there not life everlasting?

First off, let me point out that there is no everlasting life in Buddhism, just no-life, death. Just an inaccuracy in your post.

Second, you claim that philosophy seems to indicate that there is an afterlife yet it doesn't. These people operate on the assumption that there is a soul.

Do you not see the circular logic? "Let's assume there is an unseen, untestable and illogical substance called the soul, IF WE DO THIS, WE CAN PROVE EVERLASTING LIFE!"

In fact, philosphy declares the soul, and life eternal to be just as irrational as the belief in God.

Also, FOR THE LAST TIME, science and philosophy not being able to prove the negative is NOT AN ARGUMENT. It is impossible, and when theists claim this, they show they have a complete misunderstanding of the rules of science and reasoning.

Is there not life everlasting?

No there isn't, and you have offered no proof (other than an ad populum tradition) that there is. Bravo.

[Cluny the Scourge]

Why the hell would you want there to be life everlasting? The idea is horrific - eternal forced-existence without possibility of escape or reprieve. Annihilation is the greatest blessing available to the sentient being - the great promise that the innate misery of the vale of tears will have an ending.

[Gary88]

all i remember from my philosophy classes about Aquinas was that
1, he wasn't a good philosopher and used lots of circular logic amongst other things
2, many many people have pointed out fallacys in what he said

[IamthePope]

So 'proof' was the wrong word to use. Perhaps 'evidence' or 'argument' would have been more appropriate. Both authors presuppose the existence of God or a higher realm of being. They don't seek to prove this, though Aquinas gives the first cause Cosmological Argument, but assume that it's understood through revelation and faith/initiation. In this sense 'Proof' should not be used. I was attempting to show the correlation between various faiths and spiritual traditions in a theosophic manner.

There are in fact a good number of 'Proofs' of the existence of God, and the Existence of the soul. I imagine that those arguments must be supposed before we can discuss life everlasting.

Why the hell would you want there to be life everlasting? The idea is horrific - eternal forced-existence without possibility of escape or reprieve. Annihilation is the greatest blessing available to the sentient being - the great promise that the innate misery of the vale of tears will have an ending.

Apparently, Eternal life in the presence of God's love and truth is synonymous with eternal happiness. Look at how Aquinas describes it in the Christian tradition:

Man's consummation consists in the attainment of his last end, which is perfect happiness; and this consists in the vision of God. The Beatific Vision entails immutability in the intellect and will. As regards the intellect, it's questing ceases when it come into contact with the first cause, in which all truth can be known. The will's variability ceases too; for when it reaches its last end, in which is contained the fullness of all goodness, it finds nothing further to be desired... The final consummation of man consists of perfect repose or unchangableness as regard to intellect and will.

This is refuted by an earlier argument concerning souls I have already produced to you, that of splitting and merging of embryos, showing how the soul itself is not immutable, if it exists at all. It also produces the idea that upon death the person becomes utterly immobile. Both physically and mentally this is not true, as both deteriorate in time, and can be moved about. Spiritually it is also untrue, as the soul is either changeable or it is not, and as we have seen it must be in order to exist, thus never reaching his state of immobility.

I'm not sure this really disprooves the existence of the Soul. The deterioration of mind and the body are not disproofs of the soul, for the soul is held to live on after death and decay. While it is interconnected with the psyche it should not be supposed that conciousness and the soul are synonymous nor that the mind is the domain of the soul. The death and degeneration of the body is the binding and imprisoning elements of the corporeal form, not the degeneration and decay or the mutability of the soul, which is held to be eternal.

The splitting of embryos assumes that a second ensoulment is not possible. But this seems a grey and ultimately unknowable area of theology.

[Silver Guard]

I'm not sure this really disprooves the existence of the Soul. The deterioration of mind and the body are not disproofs of the soul, for the soul is held to live on after death and decay.

I never said it was, I did however, say that it shows it is not in a state of immobility, or otherwise it always was. Either way it is a great flaw in the argument.

The splitting of embryos assumes that a second ensoulment is not possible. But this seems a grey and ultimately unknowable area of theology.

Theology itself is grey and unknowable, as none can claim to know God's will. However, the splitting or merging of souls is never even mentioned in any Christian text regarding souls, even if it is in Wikka. When Wikka outdoes your religion you know its time to reevaluate your beliefs!

[Segestan]

<<<<Originally Posted by Thomas Aquinas, Shorter Summa p.168
“Man's consummation consists in the attainment of his last end, which is perfect happiness; and this consists in the vision of God. The Beatific Vision entails immutability in the intellect and will. As regards the intellect, it's questing ceases when it come into contact with the first cause, in which all truth can be known. The will's variability ceases too; for when it reaches its last end, in which is contained the fullness of all goodness, it finds nothing further to be desired... The final consummation of man consists of perfect repose or unchangableness as regard to intellect and will.">>>> No ... the universe is much more real than this grand vision of self-acquired perfected state of will. This is a vision of a soul who has entered into the finite journey manifested by means of space and time. Sorry....Not real!

<<<<Originally Posted by Thomas Aquinas, Shorter Summa p.168
“we showed earlier that the idea of immortality involves immutability. As motion causes time, in which priority and posteriority are discerned, so the cessation of motion puts a stop to the priority and posteritiority; and so nothing remains but eternity, which is the simultaneous whole. Therefore in his final consummation man attains eternal life, not only in the sense that he lives an immortal life in his soul- but also in the sense that he is brought to the perfection of immobility.”>>>>
Quite the opposite . Man leaves the condition of the eternal soul as he/she/ or animal enters the vehicles ( biologic body). Birth into the finite time bound journey is the journey of literally a Life time. It’s your chance to have a personal life and story. Life is like a book we turn the pages until the story has run it’s course. Life is a Predetermined destiny , a story pre-written that still has unknown acts that can become written in the sands of time all with free-will choices.
A final consummation that gives man eternal life is wrong. Eternal life is inherent. It’s apart of the no beginning no ending state of origin. Life that becomes manifested , allows the soul to become free from the burden of eternity is to the soul the journey of a life time into what can only be described as heaven. The lives of humans and animals that knows not happiness or suffers by great degree are lives that has become victim to the necessary chances that leads to feelings of un-happiness , pain and sorry. For life to be free it must involve acts of free will as well freely acting mechanical designs of flaws in biologic life. From the view of the eternal souls who have not nor are any longer amongst the living; Nothing is a surprise all things are know to exist within the manifestation.

1. Originally Posted by Julius Evola, Revolt against the modern world p. 48-52
<<<<"The belief that everyone's soul is immortal is rather odd; Very little evidence can be found in the world of Tradition”

“According to esoteric teachings, at the death of the body an ordinary person is reduced to a shadow that is itself destined to be dissolved after a more or less lengthy period of time, culminating in what is called the “second death”

“the Egyptian tradition referred to those who are damned in the afterlife judgment as “twice dead”. They become victims of the infernal monster Aman(“the Devourer”) or Am-mit(“Corpse Eater”).”

“the souls of the deceased continued to exist in the 'dii' manes into whom they were dissolved, but also in those forces of the stock, the race, or the family in which the life of these 'dii' manes was manifested and perpetuated.”>>>>
Esoteric teachings are wrong. At the death of the body the soul is without a time bound vehicle, is removed from the on going human drama. The soul is once move without a means of self expressing oneself in any means other than communication. The soul lives greater realities of self will through the manifestation of the finite journey. It’s not about dyeing and being reduced by another soul or family of souls into a condition of damnation or elevated into an paradisaical environment. Humans have many versions of heaven this is illogical and simply wrong. The soul IS eternal . It seeming odd to that all souls might have eternal existence is only apart of the design inherent in not knowing origin. It’s Not odd it’s the truth!

<<<<Originally Posted by Julius Evola, Revolt against the modern world p. 48-52
“the Heroes or demigods to whom the higher castes and the noble families of traditional antiquity traced their lineage were beings who at death(unlike most people or those who had been defeated in the trials of the afterlife) did not emanate a “shadow” or a larva of an ego that was eventually destined to die away anyway; instead they were beings who had achieved self-subservient, transcendent, and incorruptible life of a “God”. They were those who had “overcome the second death”. This was possible because they had more or less directly imposed their own vital force [and changed their nature through the transcendent meaning of sacrifice]. The ancient Egyptian tradition clearly articulated the task of creating out of the Ka(another name for “double” or “Demon”) some kind of new incorruptible body(sahu) that was supposed to replace the physical body and “stand on it's feet in an invisible dimension”.In other traditions it is possible to find identical concept under the name of “immortal body”, “body of glory”, or “resurrection body”. [These Gods among men] retained their soul and body in an indissoluble unity, this should not be understood as a coarse materialistic representation, but as the symbolic expression of the idea of the “immortal body” and the condition for immortality.>>>>

All this is another finite view. Logically attempting to extrapolate finite reason. Not true.
The Gods were and are those who has ‘invested in them’ by the universal multitudes , that is the countless souls, the power of giving a soul , and each soul is unique no two exactly alike, a meaningful journey into time; in other words setting the course of ones life, adding pages so to speak, of what your journey will be, though not dictating what that life must be. Acting Upholders. Somewhat like any earthly power does for it’s governed.

<<<<Originally Posted by Julius Evola, Revolt against the modern world p. 48-52
“the Egyptian sahu, created by the rite, thanks to which the deceased can go on to live in the company of the solar gods, indicates that the body that achieved a high degree of knowledge, power, and glory and that has thus become everlasting and incorruptible.”

“There is a very suggestive Vedic formula: “leaving behind every fault, go back home. Filled with splendor, be reunited with your body” The Christian dogma of the “resurrection of the flesh” that will take place on the day of judgment is the last echo of this idea, which can be traced back to prehistoric times”

“In these instances, death did not represent an end but a fulfillment. It was a triumphal death bestowing immortality... people saw in the elders, who were closer to death, the manifestation of the divine force that was thought to achieve full liberation at death”>>>>

Some souls , though Very few, are given lives that involves great destinies. Lives that are filled to the brim shall we say with glory and honor. Some are destined with great wealth . All in all, very few have journeys like those of a King. It’s the balance of life. Some are born with great defects that cause untold misery and sorry their whole life’s journey. The mass of persons lives as a commoner.
The Christian Dogma as the author calls it of the ‘ resurrection of the flesh’ is just exactly what should happen to those who may , if the story is written that way, should see happen if they are to live a life that seems earned and justified by their self imposed acts of righteousness in this life. Heaven on earth can only be attained through the vehicle of the time bound soul. This may seem dogma but it speaks of..... ‘ Potential Truth’.

<<<<Originally Posted by Julius Evola, Revolt against the modern world p. 48-52
“thus as far as the destiny of the soul is concerned, there are two opposite paths. The first is the “Path of the Gods”, also known as the “solar path” or Zeus's path, which leads to the bright dwelling of the immortals... The other is that trodden by those who do not survive in a real way, and who slowly yet inexorably dissolve back into their original stocks, into the “totems”... this is the life of Hades/Hell, of the “infernals”, of the “Nifhlheim”, of the chtomic dieties. This teaching is also found in the Hindu tradition where the expression “path of the Gods”, and “paths of the ancestors”. It is said also: “There are two paths, one bright and the other dark, are considered eternal in the universe. In the former, man goes out and then comes back; in the latter he keeps on returning”

“To free human beings from the dominion of totems; to strengthen them; to address them to the fulfillment of a spiritual form and a limit; and to bring them in invisible way to the line of influences capable of creating a destiny of heroic and liberating immortality-this was the task of an aristocratic cult.”>>>>
Well Freeing human beings does Not involve the end of the manifested life. In fact Freedom can only be attained in this universe by having the ability to be born mortal. There simply is no great virtue in the death of the body. The body dies because each souls journey , each soul pages must turn. must end , the passing of time is by fair reasons, fair reasons for all. There simply must be a beginning and end or the journey is not really a journey. Death must be that we may enter life anew and enjoy things as if they were new.

[Silver Guard]

Please delete

[Idwayreth]

Eternal life: Proofs by Thomas Aquinas and Julius Evola

Once again, people telling people what happens after you die.