What does it take to get a vassal?

[Lonck]

took the balkan cities from the byzantines and asked for a vassal but nothing. then took nicaea and left them with 3 settlements but still nothing. What do I have to do to get a vassal?

[Spartan156]

You usually have to have the offer totally unbalanced for them, I've people have to give about 10k and a few cities just because they wanted a vassal.

[Sher Khan]

You'll have to completely decimate their forces in battle, and have a much stronger military than them.

Then, you'll need a global reputation of at least Very Reliable or better for it to be even feasible (I've had it offered on Mixed, but with ridiculous demands).

[Lonck]

looks like its better to just annex em than ask for a vassal.

[antaeus]

i am not sure what it takes...

i once offered venice the chance to become my vassal, i was the turks and had an army at their capitals gates and they had one other city and no army... they jumped at the chance for 5000 (i had a very reliable reputation)

in my current game i am playing as egypt... i cant seem to make a single nation become my vassal... i had spain down to one city, no armies (except for their faction leader and a couple of ships) and an army at their gate... i had a very reliable reputation and offered 200000 florin and some of their territory back and nope.

so i am not sure what the rules are...

[Dagoth Nerevar]

I'm pretty sure the vassal system is screwed up. I've had Sicily down to one territory as Milan before, and I had them blockaded and besieged for 5 turns per go, offered them Jerusalem and Antioch+100000 florins and they still didn't accept. It's weird.

[crazyj]

I'm pretty sure the vassal system is screwed up. I've had Sicily down to one territory as Milan before, and I had them blockaded and besieged for 5 turns per go, offered them Jerusalem and Antioch+100000 florins and they still didn't accept. It's weird.

Sometimes they refuse the offer because somewhere they have an army you can't see like one on crusade, or that abandoned its crusade but is still far from home, and that army factors into their perception of their own strength.

Sometimes, the enemy you are trying to vassalize may refuse simply because it has a stack of 4 or less units (like their usual 'border guards') in your territory that hasn't been expelled yet.

So you need to make sure they have no units (not even a single one) in your territory, and that they don't have any big field armies roaming (even if they are half a world away) and that they are basically in a wretched, dejected position where they have to recognize their own weakness.

I find the chances of vassalizing are pretty good when the enemy is down to one settlement, with no armies (everybody bottled up in town), and the town garrison itself significantly reduced (if big when the siege starts) or very small.

Basically, then their choice is to be wiped out in a few turns (because they have no random armies that they delude themselves into thinking may yet factor into the equation or somehow save them) or become your vassal.

Other times I've been able to vassalize enemies with 3-4+ territories, as when I vassalized Sicily as Milan (Vanilla 1.2, Hard) who controlled Naples, Sicily, Ragusa, Cagliari, Tripoli, and Tunis.

In such times, there are other factors at play, such as the factions similarities to your own (both Christian, I hadn't bothered conquering anything they owned yet except Cagliari, which isn't one of their "natural" provinces so they're not as vengeful as if it had been Naples) and their other diplomatic arrangements. In Sicily's case, even though we were at war, we were both at war with Egypt and the Moors, and Sicily was also at war with the Papacy, Byzantines, and Venice. So becoming my vassal meant removing a war front and allowing them to focus on their other enemies (an important calculation in both cease-fire offers and vassal offers) and auto-peace with the Papacy to boot (as I was allied with the Papacy).

I didn't even offer them anything, I simply had moved a nice army from Venice into Serbia to threaten Ragusa, and one from Northern Italy into Naples to threaten that town. (Again, I cannot underestimate the importance of force projection, sometimes the difference between getting them to accept vassaldom and otherwise is moving a big army into their territory to threaten them with a big stick). But before moving to actually begin real hostilities (taking Cagliari doesn't count, it was simply a preliminary demonstration of power haha), I thought "I'll give em a chance, they can accept this or I'll make Italy green." And they accepted (and sold me Ragusa a few turns later at a fair price), and we went on to enjoy a harmonious several hundred years as lord and vassal.


Notice the army that just took Cagliari is only a short sail from either Sicily or North Africa. The Sicilians actually had just sent a relief army to Sardinia which arrived too late to prevent its loss, and I'd just wiped out that force (making sure, as I said before, that NO enemy troops are in your lands when you go to offer vassalhood). Combined with the threat in the Balkans and in Italy proper, it was fairly evident that they stood to lose Ragusa, Naples, and Sicily very shortly, and would be left only in control of Africa (much lower tiered towns), surrounded by hostile Muslims and threatened by further invasions from myself and Venice.



When you see that their priority is peace, it is a great sign for both ceasefires and vassal offers. As you can see, Sicily is militarily strong but strategically and financially weak, having no adjacent trading partners (emphasis) and being surrounded by equally or more powerful enemies. All of this actually makes my offer of vassaldom "balanced;" even when I offer nothing else they realize they still gain quite a bit from ANY ceasefire with me, even it means accepting vassalhood.




Hehe only under "great duress" indeed. But the point is that it was truly in their interest to accept my offer because they could refocus their attempts at survival and in fending off so many enemies, they were reconciled by the Pope, and they gained a powerful ally of the same persuasion to help them against our mutual enemies (Egypt, Moors, etc). So even though they had 5 provinces left, I didn't have to give them jack ****. Notice also how after accepting their role as my vassal, their priorities changed from peace to WAR!! Now they can go get some, knowing their northern flank is protected, they have solidified land and sea trade routes, and that their liege lord also fights the same infidels.

[Amerikai]

Vassaling has one use in my experience, to march your armies through those lands and put em up against cities and break all the allegiances.

[T-wester]

it helps if they dont have any allies, and you have one that are at war with them

[medival rome]

i am england i have scotland and hre as vassels trying to get milan if u want vassels you need two things a ridiculous amount money and a superior force

[Lonck]

Yeah I made venice into a vassal my last game. They only had venice which had a full garrison and no other settlements or armies around. I couldn't take the settlement after 5 tries so I decided to try to make em vassals and they accepted. K thnx very helpful.

[Chipp]

I actually need help with this as well. Playing as England, I have 3 stacks in France's last remaining territory, and I have defeated their troops again and again. My reputation is very reliable. (Before it was immaculate, until I forgot and took over a settlement that I had given away) France has 2 remaining allies. Denmark and Turks. I tried to get France to break this alliance, by declaring a crusade on Denmark. It had worked with Portugal. I'm at war with Denmark, but have cease fired turks. I have tried offering them vassalship, but even with 30k and 10k tributes, as well as land, the thing doesn't even move. Need help.

[crazyj]

I think there is also a tendency for some factions to refuse out of spite. As in, you've taken so much of their prized land and they hate you so very much that they'll never agree to be your vassal. Then I say, "fine, have it your way" and exterminate them. At times there really does seem to be some random "bitterness" factor where they stubbornly prefer death before dishonor.

I think this is a result of how long you have been at war, how many territories you have taken (and whether you just occupied, sacked, or exterminated the towns: occupying being the best way to show your beneficence), which specific territories were taken, whether they still have adjacent trading partners (isolating them economically seems very important) and perhaps their other alliances (if they are allied with others who are fighting you, just as it is harder for them to accept a ceasefire, so too is it harder for them to accept vassalization).

@Chip: the last point I raised might be the clincher in your case (their alliance with Denmark, and the fact that you are at war with Denmark as well). Either get a ceasefire with Denmark, or break their alliance (you already tried so maybe the first option is the only one) and then try making them your vassal. It seems that they consider the Danes war against you as an additional faction strength, which kind of negates their own weakened condition. Plus it is dishonorable to make peace with your allies enemies, which just simply makes it that much harder for them to agree to such a betrayal of their allies vis-a-vis becoming your vassal.

But just as a curiousity (I'm sure it's possible or that others have done it), I've never been able to make France my vassal as England.

[Renco]

Just to bring this up again and clear up any mis conceptions, but playing as Endland i've now got Scots, Danes and Spain as Vassals. Some things i've noticed.
1. It was mentioned above that you need a relatively good proposal for them untill you are reliable or very reliable, which you wil be once you make a vassal. As England you can just apply mass military pressure and scots will cave eventually.
2. After you have R or VR rep you just cut off a few cities and crush a few armies.
2a)With the Danes I had to cease hostilites, but I just created an awesome army of 4 Star general, 9 Longbowmen, some infatry and 2 knights templar (a gift from the council ) I just moved this army to outside their middle castle and they attack me. Odds were 1:2 in their favor, they had best infantry in the known world in that army. But a bridge battle with majority archers is always skewed so I beat them badly. Then, with 4 towns left and half my military they become vassals. That made the pope happy.
2b) With Spain I was a bit more prepared. I launched the attack down on Leon and ended their small but decent garrison. Then I moved down and took Toledo with my new catapults. From their I mass produced armies so I had 2 stacks made up of 8 retinue longbow, 4 armoured swordsmen, 4 dismounted english knights, a general and some cav for chasing routers. Took valencia with ease with 1 and sent 2 down to siege Corodoba whilst 1 made it's way to Granada. Spain caved in from there. I gave them back their land for Vassalhood and that brought them to orgasm with the sheer ectasy of my generous-ness. At the time they had a full stack in my land hovering around Toledo.

If you can't be bothered to read all that There are a few main points.
> You don't have to utterly destroy a faction's military, but it can help. Often a few big battles (that you win) will suffice.
> They can have armies in you land as long as you have a stronger military all round.
> Being Reliable Very Reliable helps in negotiating.
> Attaining good rep is easy be lending your enemies a lifeline of Vassaldom.
> Never ask for vassals if it is displayed as very demanding, no amount of money/land will convince them.
> One way to ease the process is to gift them say, 30,000 to make them amiable or something, then becoming vassals is easy. It could take less but to avoid corrupting governors, I like to spend like crazy on others when I have more money than I know what to do with.

Sorry I can't post pics, I don't know how.

EDIT: This is on 1.3 vannilla, no kingdoms, no other mods, just the plain game with pathces.

[Kahn]

Do you guys/gals think that saying "accept or we will attack" would bring down the odds of them accepting?

[Renco]

Do you guys/gals think that saying "accept or we will attack" would bring down the odds of them accepting?

I think the only purpose of that is to force a proposal, eg you say give X region and say accept or we will attack so they don't put a price on it. It doesn't help in Vassly negotiations.