Is California Sovereign?

[Ahiga]

Normally I don't come about the Political section here anymore, but I'm looking for some more educated opinions after getting into an argument recently. I spoke with two people, one from California the other I don't know where, first about gun laws and then it progressed into whether or not California was Sovereign.

I felt it wasn't, though it could cede and become it, they told me it was. The Californian said since she lived there and noticed things going on in the Government (An example was about them barking back at the Federal Government for busting their Medical Weed farms), they were sovereign. The other was, in my opinion, an idiot who told me that the Government only has the right to tax, despite showing him the Constitution and the other powers granted to it, and then it got into some really messy logic about because the states are willing participants, they are sovereign (or at least California is).

Now I'm not a fan of California's gun laws, and I prefer small Government to Big, but what is the deal here? Is California Sovereign? Is it not? Are all states Sovereign?

[RusskiSoldat]

I believe that the states are by no means sovereign. When this nation was a union of sovereign states under the Articles of Confederation, it was an abysmal failure. And when states' rights advocates (among other things) tried to secede, they were firmly beaten. These two facts seem to affirm to me that the states, despite being autonomous, are inferior to the Federal Government in powers. Another thing to back this up would be that in conflict between the Federal and State constitutions, the former wins.

[Icefrisco]

None of the states are sovereign. Some might be more in touch with the modern world (California, New York) and which may make them seem sovereign but they really arent.

[removeduser_487563287433]

California is absolutely positively one hundred per cent not sovereign.

[Dayman]

No, since the states are denied a lot of rights that would make them sovereign. (the power to sign treaties with other sovereign states, to make war etc)

Feuding with the federal government happens with every state.

[Farnan]

States are semi-sovereign entities, halfway sovereign in that they get to tax, have military forces, and make laws, but not sovereign as they owe alleigance to the Federal government and cannot conduct foreign policy.

[catintheoven]

the states cant even license pirates

[Dayman]

the states cant even license pirates

I forgot about that one

[Caelius]

At the State and Local level it is, and while it's definitely not sovereign (ie it's own country) it still retains a certain degree of autonomy (and considerable political influence) within the Union. Afterall, going by the Constitution, any powers not granted to the Federal Government will reside with individual states.

[Rush Limbaugh]

California is a Sovereign State . It is not however a Sovereign Nation. Confusing I know but thats the way it is. The US is comprised of a federation of Sovereign States, each with its own constitution,

[removeduser_487563287433]

States are semi-sovereign entities, halfway sovereign in that they get to tax, have military forces, and make laws, but not sovereign as they owe alleigance to the Federal government and cannot conduct foreign policy.

You can't be semi-sovereign, that is an oxymoron. Something is either sovereign or it is not, and the states are not.

Can the states declare war? /thread

[Yuiis]

States are semi-sovereign entities, halfway sovereign in that they get to tax, have military forces, and make laws, but not sovereign as they owe alleigance to the Federal government and cannot conduct foreign policy.

States in the US are already much more sovereign than Catalonia.


Pff.

[Rush Limbaugh]

States pretty clearly that Federal Law overrules State Law.

But it can only make laws concerning the powers granted it by the constitution. Of course this is no longer the case and much of my point.

As our beloved president has said

“Mr. President,” one aide in the meeting said. “There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution.”

“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”

[removeduser_487563287433]

They absolutely can't.

[Rush Limbaugh]

They did

[Caelius]

I think its just semantics then. State, nation, nation-state.

No it's not, the concept of the Nation-state describes the differences b/w a State and a Nation quite thoroughly. Look it up on wikipedia if you need to.

The United States Constitution
Enumerated Powers.The US is comprised of a federation of Sovereign States, each with its own constitution.The US Constitution is intended to stipulate those specific Powers which are granted the Federal Sovereign, which are forbidden to the State Sovereigns, and to provide that all not granted the Federal Sovereign rest with... etc

Rush is completely right.

Many States were indepedent before joining the Union.

Very true, and some (like Texas and Hawaii) were their own independent Countries/Kingdoms.

I doubt a single state would have ratified the constitution knowing they gave up their Sovereignty and that the south had the perfect right to leave the union. We are not even close to the government outlined in the constitution.

You should read the Northwest Ordinance then:

The said territory, and the States which may be formed therein, shall forever remain a part of this Confederacy of the United States of America, subject to the Articles of Confederation, and to such alterations therein as shall be constitutionally made; and to all the acts and ordinances of the United States in Congress assembled, conformable thereto.

It specifically outlined that all states which were admitted into the Union henceforth abdicated their right to secession from the US. The Founders didn't want the US, for whatever forseable reason, to become fractured into numerous small states similar to Europe.

Now I know you may argue that since the Ordinance was made before the US Constitution was ratified it wouldn't be binding. However it should be noted that it was simply adopted into the organizational structure of the US and has remained in effect ever since. So instead of being subject to the Articles of Confederation, was simply transferred to being the subject of the Constitution.

In short, there was no legal basis for the Confederate states to secede, not to mention the obvious moral or casus belli basis for why they couldn't secede.

The Ordinance provided the means by which new states would be created out of the western lands and then admitted into the Union. Governors and judges appointed by Congress would rule a territory until it contained 5,000 free male inhabitants of voting age; then the inhabitants would elect a territorial legislature, which would send a non-voting delegate to Congress. When the population reached 60,000, the legislature would submit a state constitution to Congress and, upon its approval, the state would enter the Union. The importance of the statute, aside from providing for orderly westerly settlement, is that it made clear that the new states would be equal to the old; there would be no inferior or superior states in the Union. Moreover, in the Ordinance Congress compacted with the settlers of the territories that they would be equal citizens of the United States, and would enjoy all of the rights that had been fought for in the Revolution. Where the Articles of Confederation lacked a bill of rights, the Ordinance provided one that included many of the basic liberties the colonists had considered essential, such as trial by jury, habeas corpus,1 and religious freedom. One should also note, however, the important role that property still played in government, a holdover from British theory that only those with a tangible stake in society should partake in its governance. The Northwest Ordinance would, with minor adjustments, remain the guiding policy for the admission of all future states into the Union.

We are not even close to the government outlined in the constitution.

As the Framers would've wanted it, hence the 27 Amendments that have been made since this country's founding.

But again I think they still have the right to leave.

Read above.

They could

No not at all, and if any single state did then they'd get slapped down hard by the Supreme Court.

But california is the richest state in the union so it obviously has more clout than the others do in these matters. It can probably go longer without federal aid than Wyoming or Idaho can.

It also has the most political clout, it has the largest number of Representatives in the House alongside all the other big states like Texas and New York.

It was called the Civil war.

None of which was ever recognized by the Federal government, considering the fact that they won the war, that would make the Confederacy's claims null and void.

Again I still believe any state has the right to leave the Union and that they are indeed Sovereign and were only forced into the position they are now by armed aggression.

And your wrong, drawing comparisons to International law or supranational organizations like the EU is foolhardy. The United States is a Constitutional Federal Republic organized into a Union of 50 states (plus territories and commonwealths) delegated over by a supreme national government.

I'm sure you've read it, but this is an issue that the Founders explicitly covered in the Constitution with the Supremacy clause:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

Federal Government > State Government whenever the two come into political,economic,social,whatever conflict. It's unfortunate that it took a civil war to hammer that out, but the Supremacy of the Federal Government has always been set in stone.

Difference being that the USA is a federal state and the EU is not.

Exactly.

[catintheoven]

thats not very good not being able to cede, what happened to self determination or what ever? what would happen if a state for some reason or another wanted to cede? they dont have there own armies do they?

[RZZZA]

thats not very good not being able to cede, what happened to self determination or what ever? what would happen if a state for some reason or another wanted to cede? they dont have there own armies do they

Another Abe Lincoln would step up to forcefully stop them? thats the precedent that was set, no state can now secede without the other 49 states getting pissed and forcefully re-unionizing them.

Thats what I think, anyway.

The states do have their own armies, but theyre not good for much except state defense.

[Caelius]

thats not very good not being able to cede, what happened to self determination or what ever?

It's called sending two Senators, plus however many Representatives (and lobbyists!) to Congress every 2/6 years. Along with the ability to determine the make up of the Federal government through Presidential elections, Congressional appointments, etc.

what would happen if a state for some reason or another wanted to cede? they dont have there own armies do they?

It'd be unconstitutional, unless state grievances were so bad that all 50 states decided to abolish the Constitution altogether and come up with a new supreme law, or hypothetically revert back to individual sovereign entities, though getting all 50 to agree on something like that would be virtually impossible.

[Rush Limbaugh]

It specifically outlined that all states which were admitted into the Union henceforth abdicated their right to secession from the US.

Quote it. And I still insist most states took this as a gentlemans agreement that they could back out of at any time just like any other treaty between states. No State in their right mind would agree to surrender so much power to the Federal government. If its not in the constitution then the power goes to the state. Show me in the constitution where it says your stuck forever.