Thoughts, ideas, and general pickings :D

[headsh0ts]

Weve all got ideas which we believe would make the mod take that leap from great, to superb. So, i thought we could put them all in a thread. (alright, so i just wanted to rant about my own ideas, but i may aswell invite others to have a say!)

* Dismounted Bodyguard, purchasable in exactly the same way as Bodyguards are now - Personally i like the idea of being able to rally the troops while the general is right in the thick of it
* Slightly different textures for kings for each faction.
* More units, especially crusader units, with limited amount being able to be bought for each level of guild. Check out these.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...26&postcount=4
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...30&postcount=6
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...40&postcount=7
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...42&postcount=8
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...1&postcount=30
Hashashim archers would be cool too.
* Limited amount of guild units per level (playing as the HRE for example you have a really unfair advantage of getting a guild hq early, and having a huge army of +2 atk and def teutonic knights). Plus with all the crusader units above, would be nice having all those units and only being able to make 3/4/5 at level 1.
* New faction based UI (not sure if thats possible)
* More historical event images (rather than standard scribe sat at a table writing every time. should be simple)
* Better guild/building images
* Better agent images in the recruitment window, god i hate them.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...hashincopy.gif
* Building descriptions should include how the title system works, as well as other changes (to my knowledge its only in the readme)
* Different mission pictures (if possible).
* Not sure if its possible, but bribing merchants would be nice.
* Knights order/Hashashim missions.
* Knights order/Hashashim Generals.
* Orthadox factions alternative to knightly orders. Some sort of unit based guild really. Havnt done my history research to see if one existed though, i imagine it would have been included if there were.
* Fog of War enabled.
* In conjunction with the last one this would make towers more useful. Again, not sure if possible, but having a building to increase tower range in a province would be nice.
* Traits based on battling in different weather.
* More "Hates x faction" traits. (battling rebels repeatedly in my own provinces still doesnt trigger a hates rebels trait)
* Not sure if they do, but high level spies should incite unrest in cities.
* Fire by rank removed (is a must in my games now, works a treat).

Well im not sure if theyve been done before, or are even possible! i had a little look and couldnt find them. Id be willing to do as much work towards them myself as i can. I just needed to get ideas out my head

[Freedom]

One thing which really bugs me about vanilla TLR is that the Crusaders can recruit mail and heavy mail units while on crusade way before they become available to the Muslim factions. In my own version I modified the merc file to make it so that crusader seargeants are available only after 1098 and all other crusader units available after 1130, with the events for mail and heavy mail moved accordingly.

[Americanus Supremus]

I agree with all you said Headshots. I would like to see all that is possible added into this mod. More units = more diverse armies. The little astetic changes would be welcomed as well. I would like to add some things that you didnt touch on, but I have mentioned before.

I would like to see other factions actually protecting there cities. Im tired of playing and then getting attacked by a faction and finding they have no army, much less any garrisons in any of there cities. I would think that either lowering the cost of units or giving the ai a big cash bonus could be a quick fix. I would like a happy median between SPQR and what we have now. I think Im going to try my hand in modding more of the game then I already do when I get back home. I mentioned in another thread that mods like Lands to Conquer and Stainless Steel say that they have fixed this problem. I will download and check both of them out for my own little personal mini-mod.

I would also like to see some of the small islands removed in order to give more provinces in the mainland of Europe, Middle East, and Africa. Such as Malta, Kerkya, and the one off the coast of Iberia. In my opinion they just serve no signifigant role in gameplay. The AI has trouble with them. Unless the above Islands are going to be tied to special availibilty of units or buildings. I really see no need for them. That and there is no room for manuever to actually fight on them. Just a thought.

Another faction in Africa would give both the Moors and Eygptians something else to think about and would flush out the map a little more.

Religious and civil unrest should be more prevalent in the game. Religious conversion of regions happens to quickly in my opinion. If it can be moded in I think that if a region is taken over by the factions previous owners arch enemy it should be really rebellious. IE England takes Paris from the French.

Relations with other factions should be flushed out. Diplomacy as a whole needs to be reworked. Though I think this needs to be handled by CA. As the diplomatic actions in this game havent changed much at all in the last three games from this series. Which I see as totally stupid. Im sure there is little that can be done in this area.

I think rebels should be beefed up as well. This is something that I already do. Giving them more money and more units at the start of the game. It makes them act more like independent kingdoms. As well as slowing down expansion.

I also create a trait that all the ai generals get that gives them bonuses for governing as well as combat. That way when you face an Character lead army on the field he's no fool. 3-4 stars are expected, 5-7 stars are common. More then 7 stars is also not uncommon. I also give them attacking, defending, and sieging bonuses.

Well that's all I can come with now as I havent plaid the game in over 3 weeks, as I have been on a business trip that seems like it will never end. Should be home this weekend, god willing.

P.S. Headshots, where did you find those units? I would like to know so I can add them into my game now. It would let me finally figure out how to add units. Thanks in advance.

HC

[headsh0ts]

P.S. Headshots, where did you find those units? I would like to know so I can add them into my game now. It would let me finally figure out how to add units. Thanks in advance.

HC

At the top right of the image is a link leading directly to the post. (you can bring up sreens of single posts by clicking on the post number). Oh, and if it works, can you send me the battle_models file, i siply CANNOT get the damn thing to work. Driving me totally insane (and distracting m from making more info cards...)

Fog of War is enabled... do you mean disabled?

I mean fog of war should be enabled

I agree with Freedom, crusaders should be pushed back till 1130 (wasn't there a topic about this while back about how mercs can't be introduced by events/time?).

Cant you just make up some historical event about crusaders, and make it so it has to occur before they can be recruited?

[Xeno_cws]

Headshots I agree with everything you have there except:

Fog of War is enabled... do you mean disabled?
and
Spies are supposed to create unrest however the AI gets such a huge boost in law (or like minded trait) that you could have 5 highest level spies in one city and still not create a high enough unrest to cause it problems. The reason for this is because the AI is an idiot, and would have all its cities rebeling because it doesn't "think" about it. This of course is vanillas problem, not sure if torn tweaked it or not.

I agree with Freedom, crusaders should be pushed back till 1130 (wasn't there a topic about this while back about how mercs can't be introduced by events/time?).

[Xeno_cws]

Americanus some good ideas there many of which I echo couple things though:

Giving Money to the Rebels only stops them from going into debt, I don't believe they use it for anything else.

Unrest I covered in my post above, though I too would like to see it more prevalent roll for the player.

Headshots, I meant that Fog of War right now is turned on. Do you mean that when you explore and leave an area that area is completely invisible (while now you can only see the lay of the land not units)?

[Ketzerfreund]

* Orthodox factions alternative to knightly orders. Some sort of unit based guild really. Havnt done my history research to see if one existed though, i imagine it would have been included if there were.

Hmmm.... At least for the Byzantines I could imagine something... How about making the Varangian Guard an "order"?

Another faction in Africa would give both the Moors and Eygptians something else to think about and would flush out the map a little more.

Any idea what a faction that might be?
I've actually thought the same thing about Lithuania as an actual enemy against crusades into that pagan north-eastern region.

I think rebels should be beefed up as well. This is something that I already do. Giving them more money and more units at the start of the game. It makes them act more like independent kingdoms. As well as slowing down expansion.

Well, money is one thing... The rebel's actions are another. I would very much like to see a rebel army of a rebel province not lurking around at the border all the time but also invading!
Since I don't know what exact behaviour is linked to those "Mao"- and "Napoleon"-Settings and the like in the faction's definitions, I don't know how to make the rebels be more active.

By the way, when you just give rebels mo' money, it might happen that they spend it all at one single place. I've seen that some months ago when playing another mod. One single castle was full of units, the next settlement had two or three...
The point: The rebel ai doesn't always distribute it's money equally over the whole map.

I mean fog of war should be enabled

What fog of war are you talking about? It's on by default. Turning it off is either cheating or testing a mod... :hmmm:

-Der Ketzerfreund.

[headsh0ts]

FoW's already on!? I always assumed cos when you do the tutorial, it looks a whole lot darker, and your not even allowed to scroll the mouse over to where you havnt been. Well. you live and learn..

Hmmm.... At least for the Byzantines I could imagine something... How about making the Varangian Guard an "order"?

Had a quick look on wikipedia. Apparently they begun, and were mostly bodyguard, but interestingly they had swordsmen, archers, and mounted troops too. You could probably get away with making them a guild though, cos it says the byzantines became so heavily reliant on the varangians.

Rus could also have them as a guild cos thats where they were originally recruited from, and Kiev could have the Druzhina as a "guid".

what i did find interesting about huscarls though was..
The Battle of Hastings marked the demise of the Huscarls along with most of the Saxon empire. Survivors, along with King Harold's thegns, crossed to Continental Europe as mercenary troops. Some of these reached Byzantium and along with other Saxons joined the Varangian Guard. By the 12th century, the Varangian Guard contained so many Saxons that the entire unit was sometimes called "the English Guard."

So why cant you recruit either as mercs... Theigns are hard as.

[super-panda]

1:
-Making the game harder in updating the artificial intelligence by any means, in order to makes the games more challenging.

-Improving diplomacy with ennemies& allies capacties, allies must help you on your wars and support you, and ennemies have to attack you with differents possibilities.

-Battles mechanics need to be upgraded by any mean to be more realistics, and with it, units must be even more balanced.(mercenaries, money, and depending of the faction's capacities)

-Delete or find a way to avoid auto battles on sea, they are quite a shame in the game for the moment.

2:
-Resking of most of the factions in order to make them more realistic and differents between them, rename them to avoid spear milita, peasants, and same units for differents factions.
( This is optional, I'm saying to not have spear milita against spear milita, but maybe french spear milita against milanese spear milita, or written into their own native language to make them more different, or having totaly differents units for each faction.)

-Adding more shields, flags and units to enchance differences and balance them correctly and the interface too.

-Since the grand campaign have differents problems, make littles campaigns more like the kingdom expansion, that will surely prove to be more interesting, by having no kingdom extremly far from you, and that you will never meet.

(1: are the more important, 2: are more optionals)

[timur]

there was never a fighting order in the orthodox middle ages. The have simple a not so violental interpretation of the religion as the catholics of that time. i think byzantium has to get pushed, probably the unit stats, because their empire melts always away before little self-expansion is underway.

[headsh0ts]

-Improving diplomacy with ennemies& allies capacties, allies must help you on your wars and support you, and ennemies have to attack you with differents possibilities.

-Battles mechanics need to be upgraded by any mean to be more realistics, and with it, units must be drasticly balanced.

-Delete or find a way to avoid auto battles on sea, they are quite a shame in the game for the moment.

-Resking of most of the factions in order to make them more realistic and differents between them, rename them to avoid spear milita, peasants, and same units for differents factions.

-Adding more shields, flags and units to enchance differences and balance them correctly and the interface too.

-Since the grand campaign have differents problems, make littles campaigns more like the kingdom expansion, that will surely prove to be more interesting, by having no kingdom extremly far from you, and that you will never meet.

no offense buddy, but that sounds like a whole new mod you want made. Lets at least stick to ideas that are TLR related. Sea battles will always be auto solved, thats just obvious. Personally i dont find units that unbalanced (though correct me if im wrong), and i dont really understand what you mean by "improving battle mechanics".

Plus what other possible names could you call peasants?

On a more positive note, im playing around with shields (mainly for knightly orders) and flags. Ill post whe i can find time to finish even a single batch and see what you think.

there was never a fighting order in the orthodox middle ages. The have simple a not so violental interpretation of the religion as the catholics of that time. i think byzantium has to get pushed, probably the unit stats, because their empire melts always away before little self-expansion is underway.

Fair point. Thats why i thought the Varangians could be a "guild", as supposed to a standard unit. They were mostly mercs anyway, so their level of guild could directly relate to the distance from constantinople that they're recruiting from, and the type of Varangian units they can recruit.

This way they get a boost, as well as a slightly unique style of play, relying heavily on units from their "guild".

[acegogo]

A copule of bits I have found that might be interesting regarding guilds and orders:


Giving orthodox factions a Patriarch( much like the pope):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rthodox+orders


New order for Byzantium: (not too sure about historical accuracy)

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rthodox+orders

[headsh0ts]

had a little looksee. the orthadox Patriach only appears once a huge cathedral has been made, meaning the byzans would be dead long before then surely.

cant say anything about byzan order, no images of it there...

i still like a varangian guild, but thats my humbly biast opinion

[acegogo]

I quite like the varangian guild,.... but why settle for only one???

There are some images.... the ones with deep blue background and white cross (at least on shields I seem to recall)





I love the weathered look!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

about the patriarch, I believe that is something that will have to be modded slightly to accomodate into this mod.... as time is slow we could give it a slight push (i.e. making it buildable with lower buildings, or even from start)

Another thing that I tend to do in my own mod is to slightly diferenciate knights, order armies...( i.e. +- defense, charge, attack) otherwise they seem to much of the same thing....)

[headsh0ts]

Exactlly. Thats why i wanted a cap on the amount of order units you can produce per guild level. That way theyre as hard as they should be, without being unbalanced.

Just had a look for the Order of St Catherine (the byzan order), and can only find a russian order of knights called that, but founded many years after when the game ends, nothing at all relating to the byzans... either that or my researching skills are a bit rusty

[acegogo]

that is the same I have found....

[Freedom]

Changin the cursader units to have a line of code like this seems to fix it in my version:
unit Dismounted Crusader Knights, exp 0 cost 3014 replenish 0.5 - 0.65 max 5 initial 3 start_year 1130 end_year 2000 religions { catholic } crusading

[timur]

sorry, but this order of st. catherine is just ridiculous. The one who had written something in that thread said something like "created in 733 by justinianI" thats nonsense. besides, if this order existed, it was no knightly order, far away from something militaristic. Just keeping the wells in the desert safe... (Negev)

I dont like the suggestion of more varangian guards, because they are already over-reprensentated. this was a little elite-unit, no massproduction possible (regular, mercenary, guild would that be!)
for instead, there is no very near suggestion, just some non-elite unit would be nice. I thought about it, and the best I got was a petcheneg horse-missile-unit and this together with a armenian lance-rider (klibanarios). two not overpowered units who represent the well-documentated integration of former enemies-armies into the army. therefore a powerful turkish bowman could also fit.
(wiki says something good at this point: But according to J. Birkenmeier in "The development of the Komnenian army: 1081-1180", units of cataphracts were still being used during the twelfth century. The Komnenian restoration of the Byzantine Empire during that century created a new kind of Byzantine army, which is known as the Komnenian army. Yet it seems that the cataphract was eventually superseded by other types of heavy cavalry. The emperor Manuel I Komnenos, for example, re-equipped his elite cavalry in the style of western knights.)

the guild could be called relocation guild (especielly senseful for armenian and petcheneg-cuman units)
timur

[Demokritos]

Lots of good ideas there, guys! I would go along with most of them, and I have a few ideas of my own, but let me just make one comment at this point, regarding the idea of an orthodox equivalent to certain units being recruitable from a guild or order: only in as far as this is historically accurate.
This is not the case with the Varangian Guard, as I recall from my study of history. The story behind these guys is roughly as follows (checking my books). The Danish and Norwegian Vikings are known to have gone westward on their war and colonizing trips, which ended, for example, in them calling their territory in northwestern France for "Norsemanland", which later became known as "Normandy" (home of the "Normans"), and the whole of England being conquered by the Danish king Sweyn Forkbeard (Danish "Svend Tveskaeg") in 1013 AD. Less is perhaps known that (most of) their Swedish counterparts went eastwards in a similar vain, travelling down the rivers there, reaching as far south as Constantinople. At some places along the way they established forts and colonies, and so connected Scandinavia with the Byzantine Empire. Some of these grew to small principalities with the Vikings as the ruling aristocracy (which slowly blended in with the Slavic population, just as the Western Vikings in Normandy mingled with the French population etc). This aristocracy seems to have been known as the Rus by the Slavs, and the name may have its origin from a certain part of Sweden, just as the Finnish name "Ruotsi" and the Estonian "Rootsi" for "Sweden". Now, one of these principalities was Novgorod, and by the end of the 9th century, one of its rulers had taken what could have been a similar colony at Kiev and transferred the capital of a new state to that town. Increasing contact between this state, which was first designated as Rus in 945, and the Byzantine Empire opened up the way for the former to be Christianized by the latter in the orthodox way and its links to Scandinavia to be more and more relaxed, until the old connection was no longer apparent.
In the old Russian chronicles, the Vikings from Sweden were generally called "Varangians", from the Scandinavian word "väringar", which may mean "the sworn". Varangians served in the Byzantine Empire both as mercenaries in its land and sea forces, and the best of them as a special bodyguard for the Emperor (from which "the sworn" may have originated). This "Varangian Guard" is said to have numbered 500 and its commander carried the title "Akolouthos" - meaning "Companion", "Follower" or something like that. The loyalty of these guys could be depended upon and they had an appearance the Greeks found "terrifying": they had long hair hanging down, dragon coils on the shirt, a ruby in one of the ears and on the shoulder a big double-edged axe. The Guard existed throughout the Middle Ages, but from the 12th century onwards the recruits no longer came from the north (either from Scandinavia or Rus), but from western Europe, mostly Englishmen (who, incidentally, as a result of the Danish and Norman invasions, may have had some Viking blood in them, too). Some Slavs also came to serve in the "Varangian" Guard.
From this I would suggest to make the Varangian Guard of the game recruitable only as mercenaries in lands held by the Byzantines.

As an interesting side note regarding relevant names, when the Magyars started to invade Europe from the east, people thought of them as returning Huns, hence the name "Hungarians".

[Ketzerfreund]

I dont like the suggestion of more varangian guards, because they are already over-reprensentated. this was a little elite-unit, no massproduction possible (regular, mercenary, guild would that be!)

Well, that's exactly what we are suggesting - taking out the Varangian Guard as it is and making a "Guild" out of it.

Less is perhaps known that (most of) their Swedish counterparts went eastwards in a similar vain, travelling down the rivers there, reaching as far south as Constantinople.

Why do you think this is so less known? It isn't.
One viking even scratched some runes into a pillar of the Hagia Sophia. "Hragnar was here". (Not sure about that name, though. It's been awhile ago that I heard of it.)

All we play around with is an idea of using the mechanics of a guild or order for the recruitment of Varangian Guard units. That's why we had put the words "order" and "guild" in our posts in quotation marks.

This aristocracy seems to have been known as the Rus by the Slavs, and the name may have its origin from a certain part of Sweden, just as the Finnish name "Ruotsi" and the Estonian "Rootsi" for "Sweden".

Not "seems to be". "Was".
By the way, couldn't that name not also be derived from the name Rurik? I thought I had heard that being told in some documentary, but I wouldn't lay my hand in fire for that one. Not that I would do such a foolish thing anyway. So much for colloquialisms.

From this I would suggest to make the Varangian Guard of the game recruitable only as mercenaries in lands held by the Byzantines.

And only by the Byzantines. That's why I would still prefer the guild-way over the merc-way for them. Note, once again, that headsh0ts and I put "guild"/"order" in quotation marks when discussing that idea.

That way would also provide maximum control over how fast new units could be recruited other than making sure that only the Byzantines get them.

-Der Ketzerfreund.