The .org Does It Better?

[Tom Paine]

Something I have been hearing quite a lot recently is people saying the .org is better for help, modding help mainly. I have a pretty simple question; why? And can we change that by making TWC the modding help place par excellence?

[the Black Prince]

Certain members of this community will be very fast to tell you i am not a modder. i'd disagree myself, i'm not a member of any modding team, but i've yet to play a total war game i've not modifed to varying extents. the Vanilla can always be improved upon.

TWC's modding community however, has to me, since RTW, always seemed highly geared toward the various modding teams, and less of a forum for general modding discussion. I know i'm making a fairly big generalisation here, but the attiude i've encountered, especially from some of the more well known modders (with one very clear exception in Lusted's case) is that if you're not a part of a team, or don't work for, or help, or contribute to, some kind of modding project, you're not a modder.

The Org doesn't have that problem, and a great many of the orgs top modders work toward helping people do their own little projects, and/or providing them the help and resources to do it.

In effect, where TWC has the modding university, the Org has its entire modding forums.

If you want a place to host a mod and mod team and receive great support from staff, come to TWC. If you want help and information on modding, or want to do your own project, go to the Org.

The majority of people who come here are not modders. Not in the real sense. They are merely people who play mods, and their "modding" tends to go only so far as following instructions to install various mods. For them, TWC vs Org makes no difference.

But the next biggest group of people are the ones who want to make their own personal changes to the game, or do their own thing... sometimes this will end up forming a small team or project group, sometimes not, but i don't think TWC caters so well for them as the org does.

[Sher Khan]

Can this be changed then? Do we want it to change?

[sapi]

Can this be changed then? Do we want it to change?

Hard to say. It's more like a point of difference than a point of inferiority, imo.

EDIT: I've been thinking a bit more about what tBP and Ozy are saying, and I'm beginning to think that there isn't much opportunity for change here without community support.
It is not the site that draws people to the modding forums of the Org, nor is it the flashy front page that draws them here - it is the mods; the community. The only way to change this site so that it is better than the Org in this way is to get the modding community involved, and make them want to do it.

I'm not sure that it can be done; but, as I've already said, I'm not sure that it needs to be done.

We can always be content to be different...

[Tom Paine]

We compete for the same members on the same basic grounds. Either we can content ourselves with losing a swathe of these to the .org, or we can attempt to improve. Even if we don't view it on grounds of competition, we must realise that improvements in areas the .org does better than us at, learning from the .org basically, does improve things for the general membership.

[Arakorn]

I think the key to improving is the Wiki. I have found that the easiest way to gather information for something is a Wiki. A good example is the EU3 Wiki (has been down for weeks now, unfortunately). A Wiki's search engine is by far better than a forums search engine (which, BTW, suck!), and sometimes it can beat google too. I think we should focus on improving the wiki with more modding information. We could for example start by providing info for all the different files. Then we could create (if there isn't already) a Tutorials-category...

[sapi]

I think the key to improving is the Wiki. I have found that the easiest way to gather information for something is a Wiki. A good example is the EU3 Wiki (has been down for weeks now, unfortunately). A Wiki's search engine is by far better than a forums search engine (which, BTW, suck!), and sometimes it can beat google too. I think we should focus on improving the wiki with more modding information. We could for example start by providing info for all the different files. Then we could create (if there isn't already) a Tutorials-category...

I think that the wiki is the one thing that does work well here, in the area of community modding, compared to the org.

It needs to be publicised and edited more; but with mak gone, that will have lost a bit of inertia.

We compete for the same members on the same basic grounds. Either we can content ourselves with losing a swathe of these to the .org, or we can attempt to improve. Even if we don't view it on grounds of competition, we must realise that improvements in areas the .org does better than us at, learning from the .org basically, does improve things for the general membership.

Of course; but without the current community wanting this improvement to happen, it simply won't, no matter what is ordained from up top.

[jimkatalanos]

Of course; but without the current community wanting this improvement to happen, it simply won't, no matter what is ordained from up top.

What should we do to make the community to want this?

[sapi]

What should we do to make the community to want this?

Well, that's the question I'm posing to you, as I don't have an answer right now.

Pragmatically, there'll be no reason for people to visit here in lieu of the Org without us having some sort of 'killer app'; and for this sort of thing I can't think of what that is.

The wiki has potential, but it relies on the type of members that we need to maintain it, so that's no good.

[Halie Satanus]

Something I have been hearing quite a lot recently is people saying the .org is better for help

You here this not because it's true, but because TWC has a culture of sniping. Ironic though that the people who say that must be members here as well, now apply a simple gauge to anyone who says that, ask them if there post count is higher here or at the Org. Unless they are one of the handful of core members there it will be higher here, Why?..because we also have a culture of letting people get involved, in fact we actively encourage it, in fact we ask for their opinions when often they are not forthcoming.

The 'core' difference is the 'core' group of people at the Org, the majority are modders and to be fair most were pioneers of modding who've have been around since day one, so obviously the priority there is geared towards modding. Now from what I can gather TWC didn't start out that way and when it did start to catch up created the Trivium organisation, which sadly, eventually, became a TWC political pawn, details are sketchy (I'm sure Archer can tell you the truth of it all) but it seems nefarious deals and members being poached from mod teams gave it a bad name (and caused a rift with some members of the Org). So what should now be our center for modding research became defunct, despite Archers efforts to revive it with the NTO.

Now there seems to be a misconception that there is an 'Org' community and a 'TWC' community, it's not true, or at least not going beyond the core members, the same people are answering questions here as there and in fact I would say we generally have a quicker turn over in response time to questions answered.

But I stress it's not a competition, it's about sharing information and helping people, trying to add a competitive element is a path I will strongly oppose. Modding just isn't about being better, if that was the case we wouldn't share information, EODI and FATW would crash when you destroy the core buildings and a rebellion takes place (or something like that, Mak knows the details)..

Now I understand that many who call themselves 'CC' members have a hard time understanding that it's not about competition, but really it's OK...we don't have to feel we're "better"..

We can always be content to be different...

Yes, or even the same, and different.

is that if you're not a part of a team, or don't work for, or help, or contribute to, some kind of modding project, you're not a modder.

Character names project.
Xenophobia.
Clouds across Europe.

I went no further than my own sig, and they all started as one man projects so that's nonsense.

The majority of people who come here are not modders. Not in the real sense. They are merely people who play mods, and their "modding" tends to go only so far as following instructions to install various mods. For them, TWC vs Org makes no difference.

This is true, and it's not a problem.

[Tom Paine]

No, but we do need to deal with our shortcomings, Halie Where we have problems we shouldn't just go "meh, fine"; problems should be attacked and overcome (and competition is a useful way of making that happen)

[Halie Satanus]

No, but we do need to deal with our shortcomings, Halie Where we have problems we shouldn't just go "meh, fine"; problems should be attacked and overcome (and competition is a useful way of making that happen)

We don't have any short comings, there is a thread at the Org where the question was posed "Why does TWC have more hosted mods", do you think they panicked and started worrying about it. No of course not, they take care of themselves, which is what we should do, what we do, do, don't fret about being better.

Attacking problems, is not what we should be doing, taking time and listening to the community is what we should be doing. Which is why we have, or will have the 'CB'.

[Lusted]

Well i have to say that activity at the .org is not very high, and whilst some of the best modding research is done there, it is often not the best place for getting questions answered. .org is different to TWC, both sites are good for different things. There doesn't need to be competiton, the mod community should work together.

[sapi]

Well i have to say that activity at the .org is not very high, and whilst some of the best modding research is done there, it is often not the best place for getting questions answered. .org is different to TWC, both sites are good for different things. There doesn't need to be competiton, the mod community should work together.

[Arakorn]

I agree, there should be no competition between these two sites, in fact, there should be more cooperation. We should ask the Orgers (that's what I call them ) to start writing for the wiki. They have let their "Gahzette" be published here. This is the sort of thing we want more off!

[sapi]

I agree, there should be no competition between these two sites, in fact, there should be more cooperation. We should ask the Orgers (that's what I call them ) to start writing for the wiki. They have let their "Gahzette" be published here. This is the sort of thing we want more off!

- we're actually getting a pretty much even split for hits between tworg and twc, which surprises me, tbh

True, though. I'm not sure how much luck you'll have, but feel free to try to get some more wiki writers from the Org...

[therussian]

The .org was always and will always be mainly a TW forum, while the TWC is leaning more towards the Non-TW area, despite the large TW community

[imb39]

We can always be content to be different...

Very true, but if we can learn from the Org...

The .org was always and will always be mainly a TW forum, while the TWC is leaning more towards the Non-TW area, despite the large TW community

Well, I think in terms of how vocal things are, that might be true. I certainly hope that the modding sections still function as the primary areas.

[Hader]

Is this really a Curial matter?

[Tom Paine]

From the Constitution;

[...T]he Curia [...] shall be a place for an exchange of ideas. [...It] is considered the heartland of the Citizens right to influence their community[...]

So, I'd say so, yep.