RUS 2 Total War

[Hrobatos]

I know that some feuds were given to serbian despots in south Hungary after fall of Serbian Empire, but there is absouletly no proofs what was ethinicity of peasants there, there are no proofs whatsoever of existance of neither Serbs or Croats in what is today nothern Serbia. So they are Slavs, and so what, y'know there are Slavs who arent Serbs. i know its hard to believe for all you "GREAT SERBIA" guys but what can you do...

all of Hungary was inhabited by Slavs when Magyars came, why wouldnt these Slavs be same as Slavs in rest of Hungary?
why do they have to be Serbs or Croats?

first of all, if they were Serbs why doesnt Porfirogenetus writes anything about them when he writes so much about Serbs in Raška and Dioclea and so on, and not even mentioning of Serbs in Banat and Srijem...

just think about it...maybe, just maybe these Slavs arent Serbs but some other Slavs.

@Hrobatos, I though you are not one of those Croats...with WWII Nazi ideology, treating Serbs as sub humans. Serbs were only peasants and had no horses, and there were no Serbs until XVII c?!!

alwright , Im sorry, you right, when war came to Serbian Empire, every serbian peasant got himself on battle horse and in plate armor to fight for tsar and country!!
Serbian Empire had 100 000 Gothic Knights!

[4th Regiment]

What the about GREAT Serbia crap are you deverting this theme because you do not have ing arguments. Half of modern Belgrade is in Banat and Srem, is that ing Great Serbia!?? What ing 100 000 gothic knights...again deverting theme. "Sebs had no horses"..well how the hell they fought Turks with gusars tacticts...those dirty Serbian peasants, how the hell Grgur Brankovic fought those battles and raided from Srem up to Kruševac, Srebenica and Sarajevo!? Who were those soldiers and nobles fighting with him? Aliens?! Whose cavalry broke Turkish center in Battle of Breadfield in Transilvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Breadfield) , also Aliens? Who were šajkaši preventing Turks in crossing big rivers in XV and XVIc..also Aliens...who fought under banner of St Sava in Great Banat uprising, also Aliens?

And yes, just as Clandestino said, Serbs live only in area of 30-40km between towns of Užice and Čačak. Everything else is Great Serbia..

[Hrobatos]

what I said is that peasants from banat and Srijem didnt fought mounted as they couldnt affor horses, only nobles could afford them, and thats a fact, well proven fact, and dont me with Gusari, thats just theory, Gusari means pirates and I dont know which moron came to idea that hussars - cavalay- got developed from serbian Gusars- pirates-, as Serbs didnt had any pirates nor would light cavalary be called "pirates" anywhere in western Balkan

and yes, hussars were almost all lesser nobles, not rich enough to buy themself armor, while rich enough to have a horse, shield, lance and a helmet, and as lesser noble family they were obligated to send one horseman to king in time of war

please learn some history before coming here to discuss something with me, its well know where first serbian states were, and when they moved north

and fact remains that except some lesser slovak nobility which had same equipment as Magyars, Croats were only Slavs in Hungary which had lesser medium and high nobility

[NikeBG]

Gusari means pirates

As far as I know, "gusari" (and its Bulgarian version "husari") comes from the Greek word "housarios" meaning scouts (praecursor in Latin). Of course, it might have a completely different etymology and just sound similar, but considering the function they originally played (light cavalry), I'd say it's an adaptation of the Greek word.

[Matthæus]

what I said is that peasants from banat and Srijem didnt fought mounted as they couldnt affor horses, only nobles could afford them, and thats a fact, well proven fact, and dont me with Gusari, thats just theory, Gusari means pirates and I dont know which moron came to idea that hussars - cavalay- got developed from serbian Gusars- pirates-, as Serbs didnt had any pirates nor would light cavalary be called "pirates" anywhere in western Balkan

and yes, hussars were almost all lesser nobles, not rich enough to buy themself armor, while rich enough to have a horse, shield, lance and a helmet, and as lesser noble family they were obligated to send one horseman to king in time of war

please learn some history before coming here to discuss something with me, its well know where first serbian states were, and when they moved north

and fact remains that except some lesser slovak nobility which had same equipment as Magyars, Croats were only Slavs in Hungary which had lesser medium and high nobility

here i must say i do not agree.
there were a lot of Serbian nobles who came in Hungary after fall of Serbia, and before because of Ottoman raids. and I'm talking about period of Janos Hunyadi and Mathias Corvinus.
they were skilled to fight with lance, and since they lost their lands they joined as mercenaries into Hungarian army- and those are first hussars that we know of. Also there are well documented cases of Serbian nobles who were granted lands by Hungarian kings in southern Hungary. But those were also forced to leave after Ottomans conquered that parts.

"Gusar" in (old)Serbian meant just raider/pirate/robber but does not apply only to sea pirates. that is modern meaning of word.
there is an alternate explanation in which hussar comes from hungarian world "husz" meaning "every 20th men" which is the way of recruitment. each noble had to arm and bring to battle one of 20 men in his lands.

[AnthoniusII]

here i must say i do not agree.
there were a lot of Serbian nobles who came in Hungary after fall of Serbia, and before because of Ottoman raids. and I'm talking about period of Janos Hunyadi and Mathias Corvinus.
they were skilled to fight with lance, and since they lost their lands they joined as mercenaries into Hungarian army- and those are first hussars that we know of. Also there are well documented cases of Serbian nobles who were granted lands by Hungarian kings in southern Hungary. But those were also forced to leave after Ottomans conquered that parts.

"Gusar" in (old)Serbian meant just raider/pirate/robber but does not apply only to sea pirates. that is modern meaning of word.
there is an alternate explanation in which hussar comes from hungarian world "husz" meaning "every 20th men" which is the way of recruitment. each noble had to arm and bring to battle one of 20 men in his lands.

According to greekocentrists Hussar might came from Hossarii (gr:Χοσσάριοι )that means "those who ambush". But it is unlikly such an explanation.
From the other hand "Stradioti" realy came from the greek Stratiotes (plural Stratiotae) wich means soldier. Even if half of the Stradioti in Italian wars were Croats (the other half where Greeks) the greek name prevaled and remained.

[Hrobatos]

here i must say i do not agree.
there were a lot of Serbian nobles who came in Hungary after fall of Serbia, and before because of Ottoman raids. and I'm talking about period of Janos Hunyadi and Mathias Corvinus.
they were skilled to fight with lance, and since they lost their lands they joined as mercenaries into Hungarian army- and those are first hussars that we know of. Also there are well documented cases of Serbian nobles who were granted lands by Hungarian kings in southern Hungary. But those were also forced to leave after Ottomans conquered that parts.

and I didnt said they didnt, I said that nothing proves that populations in later southern Hungary were Serbs since 7 century and forward

thee are pleny evidences that suggest later Serbian migration to north.


from my 417 post

I know that some feuds were given to serbian despots in south Hungary after fall of Serbian Empire, but there is absouletly no proofs what was ethinicity of peasants there, there are no proofs whatsoever of existance of neither Serbs or Croats in what is today nothern Serbia. So they are Slavs, and so what, y'know there are Slavs who arent Serbs.

[Hrobatos]

in Croato-Serbian it means pirates and nothing else

[Slaytaninc]

in Croato-Serbian it means pirates and nothing else

That doesn't preclude a Greek origin for that word though.

Although, I'm not sure you're arguing that it couldn't have a Greek origin.

[Constantius]

Look keep cool heads and stick to the facts! Facts based on historical evidence based on written numerous accounts (that will be neutral )and with documented sources and archaelogical evidence. And not shout at each other and start another Balkan war ! I want to read history and debate facts and opinions ..... as does everyone else .

[Matthæus]

Look keep cool heads and stick to the facts! Facts based on historical evidence based on written numerous accounts (that will be neutral )and with documented sources and archaelogical evidence. And not shout at each other and start another Balkan war ! I want to read history and debate facts and opinions ..... as does everyone else .

we're cool. just clearing some things up.
it is a bit off-topic a discussion, but it is civil so far compared to some others.

PS
Horobatos - if you don't believe Serbs you can quickly check it in "Carski Hussar" magazine - Vuksic did write about this. you have it.
i think that Ian Heath also did write about this (you have that book too). i know there is literature in Hungarian (ask dome from Magyar mod, he knows a lot).

[Hrobatos]

I read it before, and now I read it again, I dont find it to be convincig, and I dont believe that light cavalary in Serbia was called "gusari"

[Matthæus]

I read it before, and now I read it again, I dont find it to be convincig, and I dont believe that light cavalary in Serbia was called "gusari"

like i said there are several theories about the name. but it still remains the fact that first "hussars" appear in 1420's and that they are nobles from Serbia now in Hungarian service.

[Hrobatos]

Sure, just I find Gusar name theory to be least convincing, but thats just me

[Matthæus]

Sure, just I find Gusar name theory to be least convincing, but thats just me

that is just etymology of the name "Hussar".
the same light horseman were referred as "Rac" or "Ras" horseman - meaning that they come from Raška. that is how Hungarina ofter called Serbs.

[thrashing_mad]

that is just etymology of the name "Hussar".
the same light horseman were referred as "Rac" or "Ras" horseman - meaning that they come from Raška. that is how Hungarina ofter called Serbs.

Yep, such light cavalry was called 'Racowie' (meaning Serbs back then) in Poland.

[phoenix[illusion]]

first of all, i want to say to hrobatos, it is very possible that hussar came from word gusar. gusar is actually raider not corsair (today it has that meaning). also it was mostly called usar, without g, so usar and husar are very close to each other, concluding that with saying usar, letter h can be heard (for non serbian speakers, read it as oo-sahr. also, raiders (gusars) were mostly light cavalry, close to early hussars. not to talk about Rac or Ras in hungarian (which even today is used as offending name for serbs), and also polish racowie.

that is just etymology of the name "Hussar".
the same light horseman were referred as "Rac" or "Ras" horseman - meaning that they come from Raška. that is how Hungarina ofter called Serbs.

Yep, such light cavalry was called 'Racowie' (meaning Serbs back then) in Poland.

http://www.polishforums.com/history-...hussars-39724/
http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/...n-hussars.html

[Constantius]

If I may change this facinating conversation for a breif moment anyone know how to add stone forts/castles?

[Constantius]

Go to post #403, that should help other than that its scatered all over the thread

[4th Regiment]

@constantius, thanks! rep +