Why do the RTR spartans look the way they do?

**RTRplayer29004** · August 08, 2007, 05:27 AM

Did the real spartans of that time period look that way or something? I heard that the real spartans looked like this:

http://www.4hoplites.com/Ancient%20G...ber%202004.png

I guess they looked like that only in the hellenistic age?

**KALI** · August 08, 2007, 06:23 AM

There's lots of evidence to suggest the Pylos helmet once more became common in the early third century. But not all Spartans would be attired in such a manner. Some would no doubt be similar to the chaps in your photo. Its important to remember there was very little standardisation in Hellenistic armies. There would be a lot of variety in helmets and armour. Once someone manages to get RTR onto the Med 2 engine we'll be able to reflect this a little better...

**HouseOfHam** · August 08, 2007, 09:18 AM

All the fancy decorations, i.e. ridges, feathers, etc. were not used on battle helmets at all. A battle helmet had to be smooth, so a sword would slip off of it and redirect the force of impact to the shoulder-plates or elsewhere. Any ridge would inevitably create a corner point for a sword to get caught in, which would then have a greater chance of cracking the helmet (or giving you a concussion).

**pseudocaesar** · August 08, 2007, 09:27 AM

houseofham pretty much hit the nail on the head, the spartans were the ultimate minimalists, they would have used standard issue round smooth helmets to conform to their standardised training and army etc.

**Practiti0ner** · August 08, 2007, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by pseudocaesar

houseofham pretty much hit the nail on the head, the spartans were the ultimate minimalists, they would have used standard issue round smooth helmets to conform to their standardised training and army etc.

I think the spartans training was anything but standardised. also the spartans from 300 look the best!

**Black Francis** · August 08, 2007, 11:01 AM

The image in the original post is of a Hoplite dressed in armour that pre-dates the mod. It is your standard "classical" armour that is always portrayed in the media and made so popular by the "red and black figure" Athenian vases that were produced in vast numbers.

Like so:

The helmet in the original post is of the "Corinthian" type I believe which was around from 7th-4th Centuries BC in one form or another.

Basically, the mod starts at a later date when this armour was no longer prevalent.

Also note that the Spartans were in military decline from the early 4th Century.

There have been so many discussions of the Spartan armour over the years I feel dizzy.
It comes up almost as often as: "why aren't teh Romans wearing c00l armour like in Gladiator and all teH other movies???1111!!!?!?!?!!!!1111".

**Incomitatus** · August 10, 2007, 07:46 AM

But looking 'the best' isn't the point. Getting it right is the point.

I'll tell you what bothers me though... Illyrian helms. Not a single unit in the whole game has one, that I can tell. Not even the Illyrians. They were most certainly in use during the period by... you guessed it... the Illyrians!

For those that aren't aware, the Illyrian helm, despite the name, was developed in Hellas as one of the first successful replacements for the Corinthian helm. The Greeks used it for a few centuries and then moved on to new ideas in head protection, but the 'Illyrian' helm remained popular with the folks in the northern Balkans clear into the Roman era, particularly so with the Illyrians. They loved it so much, it got named after them.

Anyway, I'm not any sort of nationalist. I just happened to have an Illyrian helm in my hands a couple months ago as I was researching it and trying to assess its value. It then occured to me that I couldn't recall ever seeing one in RTR, so I went looking for it. Nope, not there. Most disappointing, and dare I say it, I'm professionally offended! (kidding!)

**KALI** · August 21, 2007, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Incomitatus

But looking 'the best' isn't the point. Getting it right is the point.

I'll tell you what bothers me though... Illyrian helms. Not a single unit in the whole game has one, that I can tell. Not even the Illyrians. They were most certainly in use during the period by... you guessed it... the Illyrians!

For those that aren't aware, the Illyrian helm, despite the name, was developed in Hellas as one of the first successful replacements for the Corinthian helm. The Greeks used it for a few centuries and then moved on to new ideas in head protection, but the 'Illyrian' helm remained popular with the folks in the northern Balkans clear into the Roman era, particularly so with the Illyrians. They loved it so much, it got named after them.

Anyway, I'm not any sort of nationalist. I just happened to have an Illyrian helm in my hands a couple months ago as I was researching it and trying to assess its value. It then occured to me that I couldn't recall ever seeing one in RTR, so I went looking for it. Nope, not there. Most disappointing, and dare I say it, I'm professionally offended! (kidding!)

Something I was also a bit disappointed with. There was originally supposed to be one in RTR 6's 1st update but there was a wrangle as to weather they were still in prolific use...but I added one or two from Dark Fenris' unit pack anyway.

**Companion Cavalry** · August 21, 2007, 01:31 AM

Hell, that is the movie editors spartan hoplites realistically they wore

a robe over their armour and had a standard pike and shield

**Juvenal** · August 21, 2007, 02:39 AM

Ah yes - the robe.

I have often wondered about this - was the famous red cloak really worn in battle? (I don't think the Romans actually fought in their red cloaks.)

It seems likely that the cloak would get in the way and reduce freedom of movement. Of course if they were left with the baggage train then reuniting your men with their cloaks must have been a logistical nightmare.

**Companion Cavalry** · August 21, 2007, 07:49 PM

yes the long battle-hardened veterans wore robes (sort of more like cloak)

as a sign of courage and I suppose sort of to make it look like there's no armour

beneath it :p

**Switch** · August 21, 2007, 08:55 PM

I'm not entirely certain about the RTR period (3rd Century), but I know that in the 5th Century (I think I know what I'm talking about - I've studied Sparta in the 5th Century for the past year..), the Spartans would have worn their red cloaks in battle. Red didn't show blood well (though I can't say why that would give you an advantage to be honest).

And they'd have worn not too much else, IIRC. Not the armoured speedos displayed in 300, but chest armour and greaves, and not too much else - Fighting in Greek Summers isn't particularly nice encased in metal armour!

Also:

I think the spartans training was anything but standardised. also the spartans from 300 look the best!

Again, I know Sparta changed a lot from 400-270 BC, but as far as I'm aware, that's not correct - In comparison to the rest of the Hellenic city-states, the Spartans had by FAR the most standardised military training. I could go into detail if you want, but looking up the 'Agoge' would be a start

.

Oh and yeah, fancy helmets and gear went against the Spartan constitution - Armour used would have been effective and non-extravagant, even for the kings (if they were good kings, that is).

**Mr_Ace** · August 21, 2007, 02:40 AM

Let's put it this way: Hollywood is hollywood and History is History.

**alex44555** · August 23, 2007, 03:57 AM

yea spartans were at a decline but spartan training continued all the way to the 5th centry ad!! iv read that when the visgoth invaded greece a spartan unit defeated them! so im shore the system was still very effective in 270 bc ....yea ur right all spartans had to be equal even down to there houses and how much land they got all spartans had to have to same amount of land but i dont think they would cut back on armor since it makes u a better fighter they wernt like other greek city states that u had to provide ur own war gear they were professional soldiers so i think they would of had a standerd armor and proubly the best for each man