Voluntry removal of citizenship amendment

[Elrond]

I recently resigned my rank whilst upset about several personal issues. My Patron decided to change my badge rather than remove my citizenship - afterwards I realised that I had made the wrong decision and that I should have simply stay away from the curia. I then posted in the curia 5 days later about a issue which I felt strongly about and the post was noticed by two admins. To cut a long story short I had my rank removed and readed twice in the last day and it could well be removed again. This is due to there being no set rules of resingation of rank, just a standard protocol which is kept too strictly. As I can post in the curia atm I have decided to propose amendment to the consitution which should make the system fairer and less strict:

Proposer: Narses

the folowing changes should be made to the 2nd part of Article 1 in Section 3:

Citizens

Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizens of the Forum as per Article 3 below. Once a member becomes a Citizens, they can then choose between 3 different badges. Artifex, designed for those who are modders, Civitates, designed for those who have contributed to the debating side of the Site, whether in TW or CC, and Citizens, for those who associate with both.

To qualify for Citizen, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for one month, and have no warnings within the last three months.

All Citizens have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section 2; may post with the Symposium and may patronise other members as per Article 3.

A citizen may officialy resign his rank by sending a private message to a member of the council stating that he wishes for his rank to be removed.

If within a period of one month he decides that he wants his rank back he can pm a member of the council and make a request to get his rank back. If the member wasnt subject to a disiplinary procedure at the time of resignation the council member may grant the members request. The decision can be vetoed by any member of the council, if this happens the issue is debated and the rank can only be restored if a majority of the council agree to it.

This bill is retroactive

[iudas]

A citizen may resign his rank by leaving the group from his account CP.

[Elrond]

A citizen may resign his rank by leaving the group from his account CP.

I have edited the bill so that it states that it applies to official resignation of rank rather than someone who merely wishes to stop appearing a citizen.

[iudas]

But it's the citizen usergroup which gives the permissions and privileges. Not the fact that everyone knows you as a citizen...

[Elrond]

But it's the citizen usergroup which gives the permissions and privileges. Not the fact that everyone knows you as a citizen...

You still technically remain a citizen according to the consitution.

[pannonian]

Why not just close the Capitol section, instead of making more work for the admins? Click on the green button, and you see no more of the Curia or its child forums. If you want to see the Symposium but not the Curia, go to the Symposium, then Forum Tools (one of the grey buttons above the thread) > Subscribe to this Forum. Then close the Capitol section, and you'll be able to access the Symposium through My Account (the bit where you check your rep points).

I strongly advise against this bill, and equally strongly advise Narses to do the above if he doesn't want his citizenship.

[the Black Prince]

this is totally unnecessary. A citizen can resign his rank anytime he wants, all he has to do is let someone know he is resigning, the logical person being the Speaker, since he can remove that member from the usergroups.

If a member resigns, it is only proper he must be repatronised

[Tom Paine]

No, no, no, NO. You resign. You do not throw your rank away and then get it back at the first opportunity you feel regret. once a rank is resigned its gone, and you cannot simply get it back without going through the CdeC.

[Elrond]

No, no, no, NO. You resign. You do not throw your rank away and then get it back at the first opportunity you feel regret. once a rank is resigned its gone, and you cannot simply get it back without going through the CdeC.

I can prove that I am a citizen due to my Patronization vote last year - there is not a single rule at TWC atm which states that I am not a citizen. You may not want me to be a citizen but you need to find me a rule which allows you guys to repeatedly remove and reinstate my acess.

The idea of a 2nd Patronization is moronic - I passed my first vote and have contributed allot since then - therefore I should pass it.

[Mímirswell]

There has been some confusion, mostly due to lack of communication. Narses attempted to resign his rank but imb39 (his patron) talked him out of it almost immediately. Instead, imb39 switched his displayed usergroup to full member. When Narses posted in the Curia a few days later, Publius and I, not being aware of the situation, removed his access to the Curia. Narses attempted to explain the situation but was too aggressive to be very persuasive. Last night, around 6am EST, imb39 explained what happened to me and I restored his citizenship. It being quite late for me, I also didn't tell anyone, leading to today's debacle.

At any rate, Narses is still a citizen having never resigned his rank despite attempting to do so. If you had resigned your rank, you would have to get repatronized so you may wish to continue this bill but that is up to you.

[Elrond]

There has been some confusion, mostly due to lack of communication. Narses attempted to resign his rank but imb39 (his patron) talked him out of it almost immediately. Instead, imb39 switched his displayed usergroup to full member. When Narses posted in the Curia a few days later, Publius and I, not being aware of the situation, removed his access to the Curia. Narses attempted to explain the situation but was too aggressive to be very persuasive. Last night, around 6am EST, imb39 explained what happened to me and I restored his citizenship. It being quite late for me, I also didn't tell anyone, leading to today's debacle.

At any rate, Narses is still a citizen having never resigned his rank despite attempting to do so. If you had resigned your rank, you would have to get repatronized so you may wish to continue this bill but that is up to you.

thank you for clarifying the situation, I would have prefered not to have my rank removed and readded 3 times in a day but these things happen.

I would like to use this thread to legislate some kind of proper procedure to prevent this debacle from happening again, as it was a waste of my and the councils time. I should have should have made a post saying that I had changed my mind but the idea was to keep a low profile and not post in the curia for sometime. It suffices to say that when I posted once in the curia on a issue which I felt strongly about, the stratagy failed completly.

One of the prevous consitutions had a section on resigning citizenship and I think it would be a good idea to add one to this consitution - I am open to suggestions on what should be written.

I will switch back to using a ordinary members badge whilst remaining a citizen and barely post in the curia (accept on this issue).

[Hotspur]

I agree. If you hold your citizenship so cheaply that you throw it away in a spasm of web anger, tough luck.

[the Black Prince]

you're a citizen, because as far as the admin determined, it was never removed.

If, however, you have resigned your rank, you are no longer a citizen. you terminated your citizenship through self determination. to become a citizen again after that, you have to be repatronised

[Elrond]

you're a citizen, because as far as the admin determined, it was never removed.

If, however, you have resigned your rank, you are no longer a citizen. you terminated your citizenship through self determination. to become a citizen again after that, you have to be repatronised

Post a link to or quote a rule or part of the consitution that states that what you said is true.

A convention isnt a rule simple as.

I would also like to state that my curial access was only noticed when I chose to post in the curia for the first time in a week in your vote of no confidence thread - I was in fact defending you.

[the Black Prince]

for an englishmen, you appear to have a limited understanding of how british politics works then....

nothing in the constitution deals with resignation, but its a common sense issue. there doesn't need to be a paragraph stating a citizen, or any officer, can resign, because we can't force someone to do or be something they don't want.

but once its gone, its gone. once you resign, you are no longer a citizen. and there is only 1 process to become a citizen, patronisation.

[Tom Paine]

I do not accept that any resignation of rank may at any time be withdrawn. Its simply illogical; you resigned from your rank, showing a definite will to do so, and the only way to return to being a citizen from this position is repatronisation, its that simple. Anything which would amend the constitution to the contrary is something I would strongly oppose.

[Elrond]

I do not accept that any resignation of rank may at any time be withdrawn. Its simply illogical; you resigned from your rank, showing a definite will to do so, and the only way to return to being a citizen from this position is repatronisation, its that simple. Anything which would amend the constitution to the contrary is something I would strongly oppose.

I am quite happy to have my acess removed and reinstated for the fourth time in a day if that is what it takes - it was imb39 who came up with the idea of keeping a low profile (which worked for a week) and appearing as a normal member - there isnt any written rules on this just convention - by all means write rules on the issue (if they are reasonable I will support them). Yourself and tbp like to stick to the law (ussaly to much) but there isnt any rules on this full stop.

The fact that I was upset about other stuff when I resigned, the fact that I changed my mind very quickly and the fact that the site owner was happy with the situtation for nearly a week and the fact that the acting site owner has stated that that I am still a citizen because my resignation was never folowed through should be enough for you.

I made a bad decsion (which didnt harm anyone but myself) and rectified it quickly - I didnt publicly admit I had made a mistake basicly out of pride, and the fact that the site owner was happy with the situation - which thought was enough.

What exactly do you guys gain from trying to remove my rank?

You need to take a step back from things - this is a forum and a comunity not some members club or a country or something else - I particpate and try my best. Sticking to procedure especialy when its is extremly vauge is in some cases not the right option - I earnt the right to become a citizen and as far as I am concerned I have still contributed enough to be a citizen - so I believe I should keep my rank.

Essentialy those who want me to keep my rank are saying it because I dont deserve to lose it because I havnt broken any rules.

Those who want me to lose my rank are saying it because they want to folow procedure at all times - even when there isnt a written procedure on all issues.

There is obvously a issue with citizenship resignations as people often resign before their rank is about to be removed - there is a clear difference between this and my resignation.

By all means argue for me to lose my rank - If I am honest I enjoy the attention and the fuss - and by dithering the council has made this into a debacle.

[Aristocrat]

How about no, if someone wants to throw a tanty and resign their rank, let them. If they want to be a citizen again afterwards, then they can go through the process again.

That ought to make sure they don't do it a second time, unless they actually have a good reason.

Everyone keeps telling me that citizens are the mature ones of this site, so why add a child-proof mechanism for TWC's "e-adults"?

[makanyane]

Narses, you want to claim that not allowing this is just rule following or pedantry - how about simple explanation:

Big dramatic *sigh* I resign it all speeches are quite irritating to everyone else - whatever the personal reasons the user had for them. Big dramatic *sigh* I'm never coming back again speeches, followed by person reappearing the next week are very, very irritating. People doing both repeatedly are a complete pain in the rear. The idea that you can retain the ammunition to keep doing it (citizen badge), without any consequence to yourself, is not appealing to the rest of us.


I'm not saying you shouldn't get badge back this time necessarily, I think you've probably learnt that everyone else thinks resignations should be taken a bit more seriously now. But changing rules officially so you can do it a third time....

(what's wrong with suspended by request or just not viewing curia anyway)

[Elrond]

Narses, you want to claim that not allowing this is just rule following or pedantry - how about simple explanation:

Big dramatic *sigh* I resign it all speeches are quite irritating to everyone else - whatever the personal reasons the user had for them. Big dramatic *sigh* I'm never coming back again speeches, followed by person reappearing the next week are very, very irritating. People doing both repeatedly are a complete pain in the rear. The idea that you can retain the ammunition to keep doing it (citizen badge), without any consequence to yourself, is not appealing to the rest of us.


I'm not saying you shouldn't get badge back this time necessarily, I think you've probably learnt that everyone else thinks resignations should be taken a bit more seriously now. But changing rules officially so you can do it a third time....

(what's wrong with suspended by request or just not viewing curia anyway)

My two resignation speaches were 6 months apart and there were different reasons for them - the first was TWC reasons and the 2nd was RL reasons. I admit they were the smartest idea I have ever had.

If rules were implemented so that people could return then I wouldnt use them myself and even if I did it would still be my 2nd not my third. I do occasionaly ask to be suspended by request and dispear for two or three weeks which I probably should have done this time.

The purpose of this thread is to write a procedure for removal of rank not discuss stuff about me.