Berber Spears Vs Nubian Spears

[Lord Xeo]

*Rubs temples*

Last night I was having one of those classic gamming sessions when you start up a game of something and really get stuck into it and it turns out its three in the morning.

The Moors

I've been very very impressed with MTW2 and its a awesome game. There is a few things yes that could be improved, like the other thread I read here on the Muslim factions voice sets are alittle too basic (Not varied enough).

Anyway I'm straying away from the topic as I do most of the time.

This is not a moan but something I did notice to which I had to scratch my head a few times and work out the logic in this.

I started off a Moor campaign and its been a real challenge! Milan, Spain, Papal States and Sicily all at war with me and Portugal are sniffing at my borders aswell! Its been great fun...

Now I thought to myself my campagin stratagy is to hold on to southern Spain and avoid El Cid in Valencia and defy the Council to concentrate in ruinting the Africa tribes like the VERY VERY rich Timbucto and the other one (I can't remember its name). Building a decent cash flow at the begining is key to be able to expand and take on nearby settlements and castles in a bid to conquer the rest of spain so I could then launch campaigns in Italy.

Soooooo I decided to advance my technologys and the settlements while there was a good septims flow. I managed to upgrade my barracks to be able to train and produce Berber Spearmen. Good staminia, form the thingy shield (Shieltrem I think) and bonus vs Calvary. About 155 to maintain and about 310 to recruit. So lots of these to fill in my sieged castles. I had a gap of about 4 turns to which I thought 'great I will build the next barracks for some better troop selection'. I did'nt check what was on offer when I upgraded my barracks but when I did I came across Nubian Spearman.

Now the Nubian Spearman is the same cost, same upkeep cost, same unit number, same stats but no bonus's. The Berber Spearman an earlier troop choice is far more usefull with its added bonus's.

So I do know some early technologys can be just as good as the late ones. But paying 2400 septims to upgrade your barracks to produce Nubian spearman? So am I missing something here?

Which set of spears would you have in your army?

I know which ones are going to be in my main make up of infrantry! Berbers!

By the way I do love playing the Moors alot of fun and would suggest giving it a go!


Thanks!

Lord Xeo

[Mad Mac]

Yeah, that's one of the more iffy upgrades. If you think that's bad though, try playing Egypt...most of their castle line-up consists of paying increasingly large amounts of cash for even greater heartbreak and disappointment.


I do believe that Nubian spearmen are less penalized in snow/forest terrain than Berbers though, so they can be a better choice for fighting in Europe.

[Snipafist]

Nubians have light spears, which means they do better against other infantry than Berbers do (conversely, Berbers do better against cavalry). All the same, I feel your pain. That was one of the first things I changed in By the Sword - putting Nubians before Berbers and making the Moorish/Egyptian/etc. barracks upgrades consistently better rather than consistently "eh?"

[Mad Mac]

Last I checked, Berbers have light spears too. I mean, judging from the schiltrom formation and unit description, they probably should have normal spears, but they don't. It's an obvious change to make both useful, though.

[Snipafist]

Last I checked, Berbers have light spears too. I mean, judging from the schiltrom formation and unit description, they probably should have normal spears, but they don't. It's an obvious change to make both useful, though.

Oops, you're right. In that case, nevermind. The Nubians are completely inferior. Kinda confusing that way, isn't it?

[Trajan]

Moved to Battle Planning.

[Greg89]

Yea but then again you get Lamtuna Spearmen, Dismounted Arabs and Christian Guard.
And with cities like Marrakesh, Timbuktu and Arguin, anything is possible.
One more thing, prepare to fight off pretty much whole of Europe. Sooner or later Peope gonna declare a Crusade against you.

[Xenomorph]

First time i played was with the spanish, and i didnt finish it the game... then tried the moors, and it has been a fun experience. till now i think i only did a couple nubians, they seem pretty useless. besides, in a battle, sending the berber to attack cavalry and nubians to infantry kinda sounds dumb, as berber can do both... only recently i had access to more advanced units and gunpowder just knocked at my door.
about that previous tactic of improving before conquering, i dunno, i just stormed europe really easily, and finished the game at turn 75 or so. only lost one city so far, and that was because i just took it instead of sacking it, which is realy important so the population wont revolt because of religion and for that extra cash for new troops . id say the key to playing the moors is not attacking just one city at a time, but 3-4-5 of the same country at the same time, so they get devastated. also attacking behind enemy lines to make things easier, as those cities are less protected and will make the enemy suffer.

[dr_guerra]

Well, instead of making a new thread about this, I decided to dig around and found this.

So, Nubian spearmen are completely useless. So chronically useless that it's really upsetting that they designers put them in as a later tech unit, yet has the exact same stats and price, upkeep, etc as the berbers without the extra bonuses.

Out-freaking-rageous.

[RollingWave]

this has been talked about a lot.

basically, it's something you need to change in mods, not like it matters. the Moors don't really need either unit, dismounted arabs are decent enough (because they can get higher armor upgrades) and for desert duties Latumas are pretty strong.

and do you even need spears as the Moors? I find my best anti cav infantry to be the Hashimshin which i can get BEFORE I get Berber spear (because your cities upgrade much faster)

yes it's hard to mass produce those guys though.... but either way Moors don't really need spearmans. if someone's actually going mass knights then mass camel might be more cost effective.

idealy i think they should just swap out Berber and Dismounted Arab inf for the Sudanese tribesman and something else.

dismounted arab is a silly unit . Arab Cavs aren't knights! they're basically commoners that own horse and are pretty good at riding (more common in the islamic world) essentially they're suppose to be the Islamic Cav milita. only that due to it's more popular horse riding enviornment they're a little better than their Christian counterpart.

going by this logic, then the dismounted version = Saracen Milita

[Cmdr_Sdxo]

I like the Nubian Spears . Well okay, maybe just because they look pretty badass with their one and only armour upgrade and they add a little variety to my armies aesthetically. But it's pretty weird when you capture for example Oslo and you can immediately start pumping out black spearmen . In M1TW the Nubians were one of the better Moor units so I too, was pretty disappointed that they weren't all that useful. At least they should've allowed the recruitment of Sudanese Tribesmen with the same barracks improvement that gives you the nubian spears :hmmm: .

[RollingWave]

really? in MTW the only infantry you should build as the Moors is those Almodaddy Urban Militas

[Theseus1234]

the moors are too spear oriented

i agree with Cmdr_Sdxo, sudanese tribesmen should be given to the moors for balance and logic's sake

the moors need at least ONE good attacking unit!

[RollingWave]

the moors are too spear oriented

i agree with Cmdr_Sdxo, sudanese tribesmen should be given to the moors for balance and logic's sake

the moors need at least ONE good attacking unit!

actually, they do, but it doesn't make sense to have a army of Hashimshin running around (though it would be insanely effective)

ironically, the Moors late game roster is supreb. with Camel Gunners and the Christian Guards (both version) they can easily stand toe to toe with the toughest Christian armies. it's their early roster redundency that's really baffling. they have significantly worse horse javlin than their Iberian counterparts (outside of deserts anyway), their light cav takes a while to tech to (and end up not being used) and their mass spear gets redudent and none of them are particularly good (Latuma have great skill stats but can't wear more than leather, Arab can wear heavy armor but have smaller stack size and weak stats for a small stack infantry) it really should be the other way around.

there's a lot of thought given to these in some of the Stainless steel disscusion. I'm basically thinking that... (note that this kidna applies to more than just the Moors)

1. arab cav should be both castle and city unit, in the castle they should be built from caravan, these guys weren't professional standing armies, they're basically Islamic cav militas, just that in the Islamic world the commors tend to have more access to horses and riding skills in general. so it make sense that their stats is closer to mounted sergents than cav milita) that way they would end up more as a stable of the army... which would much more realistically reflect how islamic armies at that stage looekd.

2. dismounted arabs should be removed all together, and the Moors should be given the Al-Anduris infantry in their cities (basically the saracen milita)

3. some serious adjustments in their low tier units, Moors castles should probably go something like Nubian Spear -> Sudanese Tribesman --> Latuma -> Dismounted Christian --> some new unit..

4. their cav units don't make much sense how everything is basically a weaker version of their Christian counter part but takes higher level buildings to aquire ( Jinets >> Granadine Jinets but comes 2 level lower wtf, Granadine Lancers are barely better than mailed knights but comes in fortress WTF, Arab Cavs are basically the same as mounted sergents but comes in castle instead of wood castle WTF).

essentially they should be Saharan Cav (they already get Jinets why give them two of the same? give them back the ole saber light cavs from MTW 1) Granadien Jinets, Granadien Lancers, Christian Guards. a new unit.

5.Christian Guards should be changed so that their stats correspond more rationally with normal knights. I think they should basically just be more expensive (mercenary nature) , discplined feudual knights with less moral. right now they're neither mail nor feudal knights. which makes no sense (they're dressed like some sort of suckier mailed knights but their stats is better than feudal... wtf?!?! this makes no sense at all, they were essentially based on mercenary knights or christian allies of the Moors, why would their equipment / looks / stats be significantly different from a fedual knight then?)

6. every islamic factions should be able to build caravans, Egypt should also get camel units, both faction should also get camel archers. Turkish caravan might end up getting them Nubian spearman or some sort of infantry to balance out their roster a bit more.



Camel gunners got nerfed big time in SS anyway because Muskets now takes a reallly long time to appear.

[drakuli]

I'm currently playing Moor in UltimateAI mod.

Almost 200 turns passed and I only have those crappy spears in my infantry roster. Oh, and Ghazis (finally a non spear unit). As for the cavalry, up until now I don't even have arab cavalry yet.

So sometime it is very difficult facing european knights and heavy infantry with such lousy units. I have to rely on my general, jinetes, granadine crossbow, and tuareg to win the battle. Basically, I only use the infantry just to hold the line before my cavalry can flank or attack from behind.

[Viking Prince]

You guys convinced me to start my first Moors campaign. I am only a few turns into it, but it seems that the mercenary spears are a good buy when Jihadding. I went on Jihad against Lisbon and then again against Toledo (already took out Leon). So I have about 9?? mercenary spears to mix in with the Berbers. More than enough until the dismounted are widely available (I think/hope).

Now to take care of those darn rebel stacks that Portugal and Spain so inconsiderately left behind.

I will see what the available builds are when Bordeaux and Toulouse fall.

[RollingWave]

in the early going those desert archer and cavalry are your friend

of course, you could theorically get Hashimshin really fast.

[TiTiTimmy]

*Rubs temples*
But paying 2400 septims to upgrade your barracks to produce Nubian spearman?
Lord Xeo

Do you play Oblivion since you called the money for Septims instead of Florins?

[Death4free]

Do you play Oblivion since you called the money for Septims instead of Florins?

or could he just have played rtw in which septims were used (well probably, it was a roman currency at one time)

[Theseus1234]

or could he just have played rtw in which septims were used (well probably, it was a roman currency at one time)

no no they used denari in rtw