Teppo Ashigaru

**Tanegashima** · July 27, 2007, 03:44 AM

My first post on this forum, just discovered this board! Really excited, I played Shogun when it first came out and I have always wanted an updated one!

Just a quick question or speech, I don't want to ask something that has been asked a hundred times, however, I did a search and I could not find a real answer.

How effective are the Teppo Ashigaru going to be? I really don't feel that the arquebusiers were accurately effective in Shogun and I also don't think they're fairly represented in Medieval II. I own a couple Japanese Matchlocks, and I can tell you that they are extremely deadly weapons in trained hands. I compete with a Japanese matchlock, and we START at 100 yards with a target 3 feet wide and 5 feet tall, and it is no problem to group targets in a dinner plate circumference with these guns at 100 yards (it is not a rifle by the way, but a smoothbore). Though I do think rate of fire and accuracy should decrease after every volley (fatigue, fowling, etc.) Few people give these firearms the credit they deserve, if they were only as effective as they appear to be in these games, then I really don't think that the Daimyos (and Europeans alike) would have invested so much in them. Though they cant lay as consistent or quick blanket of missiles as archers can, one volley of musket fire should be as if not more devastating. The range of these guns should be comparable if not greater than SOME of the Japanese bows (if this is possible of course in the game) Crossbows are only really effective at 50 yards and Yumi's are, in the hands of an expert, maybe to a 120 yards. The arquebus is still extremely effective at 150 yards and accurate enough to hit a man sized target, especially when employed en mass. I am by no means an expert, but I really think these guns deserve more recognition and some more utility than they get in the Total War series.

P.S.
If anyone doubts my claim of 150 yards, I will gladly take some pictures next time I go out to the range and prove it.

My Tanegashima...

**Seijitai** · July 27, 2007, 04:00 AM

Hello Tanegashima ! Welcome in our forum

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As the units stats have not been "fixed" yet for the teppo units, your "real testing" informations are warmly welcome

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I really like the teppo units ingame... Excepted when they receive a samurai unit full charge...

I only use the bowsmen to cover the teppo while recharging...

**LennStar** · July 27, 2007, 02:18 PM

Guns these times where definitely not as effective as you have desribed. I dont know how your gun was build, but you can try building another one by hand with modern tools - Im quite sure it will be not as devestating as now.

Metal is hard to work with. In med. times it was a lot harder to get 1. a fire hot enough 2. good material (from our point of view) and 3. mass production.
A real katana from a mastersmith was only for the very rich. Your weapon is comparable to this level.
An Example: "Damaszener Stahl" (german) Damaszene steel? was in this times considered the best of metalwork in Europa. Give a sword of this to Oda and he would cut off your head for insult.
And with what do you fire? Real gunpowder or normal bullets? Dont forget: In the rain the guns in this time were nothing more than long sticks. Its not an AK-47 which you can drag through mud (You should not do, but it normally works even after this).

There were 2 unbeatable points for guns: 1. You need only a few days training to be a moderate good gunner, but years and constant training to be a good bowman. 2. It could hit the enemy away (a point that is underestimated today. But if you can shoot at an enemy who cant you have a huge advantage) and caused a lot of fear. That is also not really understandable from todays point of view.
With guns your army had the initative over the enemy - the second most important point if you ask Sun Tzu, the old Chinese who is even today compulsory in several military acadamies worldwide. (the first is knowledge)

And - most important - this is a game, is a game is a game. Have a unit too strong and it spoils the game. (e.g. a 16-generals-unit army: nearly unstoppable and self-regenerating)

**Turtules** · July 27, 2007, 08:52 PM

Ok that all sounds good but, we forgot to say

Welcome to the forums!

**Tanegashima** · July 27, 2007, 11:33 PM

First just wanna say: everyone is really friendly here, thanks for the welcome PMs i've got etc.

I use blackpowder, and my own hand caste lead ball, no modern bullets. Smokeless powder would burst my barrel and modern bullets aren't even close to authentic. Blackpowder is not especially water sensitive, rain, as long as the powder is stored properly, won't keep matchlocks from working. The biggest danger rain poses is to the match itself, saltpeter soaked hemp rope, which is what the Japanese used, is very hygroscopic, and would be what was most worried about. There were dozens of means thought up to 'waterproof' the match cord, but none really proved especially effective.

The gun pictured is a modern repro, but all the parts are hand forged and the barrel is caste steel (made in Japan by descendants of the same smiths who made the guns in the 1500s). However, I also own several original pieces and the quality of the barrels and overall craftsmanship is absolutely astounding. Modern reproductions don't even come close to the craftsmanship and overall precision quality that the original pieces had. The original stocks are far better and more precisely inlaid for the barrels, the locks are extremely precisely made, with far more attention to detail than just about any non-custom reproduction I have ever seen. I would say most modern repros made with modern tools and materials are inferior to the originals.

This goes double for European firearms I might add, I have yet to see a repro that was not completely hand made that came close to the quality, craftsmanship and durability of an original piece.

Thanks again all for the warm welcomes!

I agree though, that they cant be too powerful, a game has to be balanced after all. I just have memories of getting guns in Shogun and they were completely useless, a big waste of Koku...thought I'd throw in a reasoned argument that I could defend, instead of just posing "Guns kule!! wft they 2 weak!! Make better or NO DOWNLOAD arrrreghghghghgh!!"

**Musashi** · July 30, 2007, 06:54 AM

I agree with Tanegashima about the stats for the guns. they should be something like he describes. Yes game is a game but ahving more accurate teppos does not make the game be spoiled. Instead if the prise of the teppos is high as it whas then and also as before whas posted they are not that easy to get it will balance the game and give ti a new strategy element. Also Teppos wont be very fast to reload anyway compared to bows and are extremely weak against cavalry because of this.
Also they won't be able to shoot behind infantry lines but in front of them and that also makes them weak against counter attacks.
I think teppos should be better units than they where in Shogun 'cause indeed in Shogun they where useles waste of koku.

**Turtules** · July 30, 2007, 11:56 AM

Yeah in Shogun they were useless.
I had half stack of teppo against 5 Oda no dachi, i got killed.

Seriously though the teppos should be a lot better.

**Seijitai** · July 30, 2007, 12:05 PM

I agree... I was always disappointed when a teppo unit fired against a samurai unit at 30 meters of them... And killed 2-3 samurais maximum...

**Turtules** · July 30, 2007, 11:15 PM

yeah. In RnJ it will be fixed ... rite?

**Briar_King** · July 30, 2007, 11:30 PM

I think so, this mod team is the best.

**Dom9127** · August 02, 2007, 05:55 AM

I am so looking forward to this mod, I have been playing samurai warlords as a substitute! I hope the battles are well balanced, do you think this mod will be released by September? Or later?