A real Darthmod concern

[Poisoner]

Not to knock on the mod or any of our pro darth mod forum members, but I have noticed that unit cohesion in SS 4.0 is two steps back from SS 3.2. So I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this problem.

[Mike13531]

lol, wow, everyone seem to not like darth mod. I think me and trajan is only one so far who is actually loving it. o.O personal opinions i guess.
AI did go 3 steps backwards , that's because of UAI, Ai aren't aggressive anymore, and most fights take place in naval as vanilla 1.1 patch.... i think the real problem is to remove UAI. I do like the relation modification on UAI tho...

[Poisoner]

lol, wow, everyone seem to not like darth mod. I think me and trajan is only one so far who is actually loving it. o.O personal opinions i guess.
AI did go 3 steps backwards , that's because of UAI, Ai aren't aggressive anymore, and most fights take place in naval as vanilla 1.1 patch.... i think the real problem is to remove UAI. I do like the relation modification on UAI tho...

The battle AI is fine in darth mod. My only concern is unit cohesion. Both my and enemy units were all over the place.

[izanagi11]

Unit cohension is also an issue with RC with this mod. I have multiple units that would be fighting across a range of about 300. It just isnt only Darthmod.

[Tariq]

Darth stated in his forum that he was trying to depict combat as in medieval times.So lack of cohesion is intentional.

Unlike in the Ancient times,there was not much cohesion in units of that time , and battles tended to be be chaotic.

IRL most of medieval armies didn't have any comunication between units.Example is Battle of Leignietz and Moha, where Teutons, Poles , and Hungarians were outclassed by Mongols armies(which were smaller) due to a fact that Mongols used flags communications in relaying orders and Europeans were acting on orders of unit comander only.

I am not saying that his battle mod is better then others, but i would think that he is right about units non-cohesion so to speak

+++EDIT: Even in todays warfare , when it comes to melee part, there is no cohesion anymore.Been there, done that IRL.

[The Border Reiver]

@poisoner...feedback both negative and positive is positive.

DarthMod is preparing for the next version 1.4C (2 weeks away, we are alpha testing this weekend) and there have been significant changes to unit stats etc.

Compared to vanilla unit cohesion Darthmod has redesigned battles, take a lot for example at how cavalry hunt down routing units. I haven't tried RC becasue I don't have time to do so, so I can't comment, but I have read both positive and negative feedback from it.

You (to help modders) actually need to be more specific about which units are not cohesive and from which factions. In nearly all my units playing as England they maintain formation always.

Everyone who has posted here shows the same train of thought...... whatever problems with AI in diplomacy and Battles is inherent in the coding itself.

With regards to diplomacy...it's funny and a case of be careful what you wish for....people whinged and whinged for months and months...we want more reliable diplomacy....and that is exactly what the community has got...all AI mods have managed to pacify the game further.

[Poisoner]

You (to help modders) actually need to be more specific about which units are not cohesive and from which factions. In nearly all my units playing as England they maintain formation always.

I know how to report a bug and I don't need you to try to spoon feed it to me.

[Caesar Clivus]

I know how to report a bug and I don't need you to try to spoon feed it to me.

And yet...you don't do it. The guy (a Darth dev) wants more details. How about instead of making snide remarks you provide some more useful info (as was nicely requested) to help with the development of Darth.

[Poisoner]

And yet...you don't do it. The guy (a Darth dev) wants more details. How about instead of making snide remarks you provide some more useful info (as was nicely requested) to help with the development of Darth.

My comment may of been snide but his was an insult to my intelligence. Especially since this isn't a bug report, its a general question about unit cohesion. I seemed to notice a difference and was wondering if it was real or it was just me.

[MisterBenn]

Could I request a new forum button be added just to the right of "Add Reputation", possibly coloured red with a little minus sign, and with the tooltip: "Flag Attitude Problem"?

[Novusordo]

mlp071 that is interesting. do u have anything to back that up becuase I thought orders relayed through a string of shouters.

[Tariq]

This is fastest that i was able to find on net . I actually was reading "The Mongol Invasion of Europe" by Hildinger, Erik.Can't scan that though.

But this should do it :

http://www.hyw.com/books/history/Medi0000.htm

http://www.historynet.com/magazines/...tml?page=2&c=y


http://www.laohats.com/mongolian%20invasion.htm

and ,offcourse, one not much reliable source :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_...d_organization

Training and discipline

Most European armies consisted of a few professional men at arms, and Knights, and large levies of peasants or militia. Only the Knights and the few professional fighting men trained regularly, and their training emphasized individual combat, such as jousting, rather than group combat tactics. The Mongol armies, by contrast, constantly practiced horsemanship, archery, and unit tactics, formations and rotations. This training was maintained by a hard, but not overly harsh or unreasonable, discipline.
Officers and troopers alike were usually given a wide leeway by their superiors in carrying out their orders, so long as the larger objectives of the plan were well served and the orders promptly obeyed. The Mongols thus avoided the pitfalls of overly rigid discipline and micromanagement which have proven a hobgoblin to armed forces throughout history. However, all members had to be unconditionally loyal to each other and to their superiors, and especially to the Khan. If one solder ran from danger in battle, then he and his nine comrades from the same arban would face the death penalty together.
One unique training method that the Mongols used were huge hunting excursions organized annually on the steppe. The Mongol horsemen would make a great circle, and drive all manner of animals in towards the center. Practicing the dynamic manoeuvres also to be used on a battlefield, the Mongols would trap all the animals of various types in their encirclement, and on the order of their commander, begin the slaughter. This was an excellent way for the Mongols to train, and enjoy the recreation of hunting, as well as gather huge amounts of food for massive feasts.

During the European campaigns, the once trim Subutai was so heavy that horses could not easily bear his weight. But he was so valued on the battlefield that Batu Khan had him carried to the field in a cart or wagon. Unlike European or Japanese armies, which valued personal valor in a commander above all else, the Mongols valued strategic ability and the skill to make tactical adjustments in the heat of battle above all else in their leaders. Whereas western commanders like Richard the Lionheart literally rode to battle at the head of his men, Subutai and Batu Khan sat on a hill, far from the engagement, where they could direct the flow of battle with flags. This was one reason among many that Subutai was never defeated, nor were any of the Khans he advised.

[HaveFallen]

ahh now that I read it, it seems very smart...staying at the back telling order through flags.

[delra]

I love DarthMod and would like it merged into RealCombat as the cohesion and behaviour of units forced by Darth is the best I saw. So don't say everybody is bashing Darth. People just had to choose between Darth and... RC and RC with its reworked unit stats and costs just sold out better. Darth's work is still impressive and something i dreamed about since Rome. :-)

[christophus]

hy Nobles
you will merge it yourself ? or wait for someone to do it ? if you, can post your files if u want, i'll can test it....
So i think too that ai is not enough agressive for those i test : RC, Lusted etc...

[Marine Hoplite]

@Everyone.

Don't worry about the Darth Mods. Remember how great DM8.0 for RTW was. That took 8 iterations! Wer'e not even halfway through the first round of mods on a system that, evidently, behaves totally differently.

It's gonna be great, just give it a little time.

[Mike13531]

ya, i mean, don't you guys remember the good old RTW times? where our cavalry is charges through? that's what darth mod did, and i loved it! Ever since MTWII vanilla, i thought the cavalry was useless, but now darth mod improved it, pikemen too, instead of pulling another dagger to fight last min, they continue to use the pike (very realistic in my opinion).

[delra]

Cavalry was so overpowered in RTW that i felt like a cheater every time i charged with them...

[Mike13531]

.... i got nothing to say then, real life... cavalry just keep charging without stoping, in this game that mobility is gone, so it's only fair to power them up. Sorry, but this subject to me is just so sensitive, hey, honestly, if cavalry wasn't this strong, they should probably just take out the cavalry altogether. Or else there would be no point of having them in the first place.

[Valdamar]

Yes. It's a well known fact that Napoleon led his horse on a charge that took the nose off of the Sphinx! We all know horses are GODS and mortal men have no hope against them. One day they will lead a resurgent Byzantine Empire and take their rightful place as the rulers of the world. Until then we'll just have to settle for an idealized, romanticized, and completely ahistoric memory of them.


Really, have you people never heard of the Battle of Hastings? What had to happen for William to unleash his cavalry? Its exactly what had to happen IRL. It's called weapon/counterweapon. If cavalry was really that effective then why did it take Europeans so long to develop really really long pointy stick technology?