So you think cavalry is too powerful?

[Marine Hoplite]

this morning Ihad to deal with one of my idiot horses and he did something that was a good example of how powerful horses could be.

I was moving Leonidas (I named him that 18 years ago, so no stupid "300" comments, I'm sick of them) this morning and he saw another one of the stud horses in an adjoining field. Naturally he hates him so he pulled away from me and ran up to the fence, stopped, and just pushed against it. This is a 2" galvanised steel tubing fence.


That's not running into it, that's just pushing against it while standing there. He's big for a quarter horse, but nowhere near what a charger would be like, especially with 300 pounds of knight on top of him.

Think about what 80 of those hitting you at 35mph would do! Cavalry should utterly destroy infantry in a charge. But die quickly after a few seconds of melee.

And before anyone says it horses WILL run over people or a group of people. All you would need to do is train them to take advantage of the herd instinct and create a controlled stampede.

[Marine Hoplite]

Cavalry should utterly destroy infantry in a charge. But die quickly after a few seconds of melee.

I say that because last night I had a unit of about 100 retinue longbowmen get destroyed by 10 egyptian generals bodyguard not in a charge, just regular melee in a street in gaza. NONSENSE! not even the most heavily armoured cataphract should be able to beat, or even survive against 100+ ANYTHING.

[Don in the North]

i agree the charge should be monstorous, like the RTR Gold edition monsters, but they should be more vulnerable in mellee.
but they should also be able to do alot of damage like they do in mellee currantly, they should just be alot more likely to die if they lose momentum or are completely surrounded and moving at a slower speed.

so i guess a possible answer their is greater hit rate once they slow down plus increased anti cavalry stats

[xeryx]

I concure, with you guys for the most part. But horse units that are heavily armored should be able to really mess up most units. If the horse is unarmored however, units like two handed swordsman, halbediers, and any spear unit should be able to decimate calvery that are in close.

This encourages flank and rear attacks with these units. Kataphracts should be able to decimate anything but long spear wall units in a frontal charge.

100 archers, should die against any heavy calvery because they lack armor and skill with a sword. Plus the are cowards!!

[Marine Hoplite]

100 archers, should die against any heavy calvery because they lack armor and skill with a sword. Plus the are cowards!!

100 archers, with light mail and swords against 10 horsemen not charging, in regular melee. They would(should) be attacking from way too many directions at once to defned against. PLUS, one good whack on the horses leg with a sword and horse and rider are on their way to the ground.

Cavalry should only be effective in a charge. If they're not moving fast then they are just a guy up high so everyone can hit him at once.

[Marine Hoplite]

Plus the are cowards!!

tell you what. You get on a horse and come at me, from 200 yards away, and I'll shoot at you with my bow the whole time. Let's see what happens...lol

[pestulens]

tell you what. You get on a horse and come at me, from 200 yards away, and I'll shoot at you with my bow the whole time. Let's see what happens...lol

Unless you are an ikedo master, I'll take that bet, especially if I can do it in plate mail.

[xeryx]

Unless you are an ikedo master, I'll take that bet, especially if I can do it in plate mail.

LOL, me too. You better be real good at reloading because if my heavy horse can run at 35mph, and once I am at the 50 yard mark you'll turn tail and run with 600 lbs of mean horse, lance and armor running at you!!

It would only take 20 second to get to you!!

You also forget one important factor, the game cannot take into account that if you horse died, then you would fight on foot. so quit whining...

[Marine Hoplite]

with 600 lbs of mean horse,

I said horse, not Burro LOL

Just an example, not literal. barrages of arrows would do quite a bit of damage and, equally importantly, panic many of the horses.

FWIW it really would'nt be any great feat to hit a target that big running straight at you. I've made near broadside running shots on pigs before at around 20 yards. Much closer, but also much much smaller, and interestingly, nearly as fast.

[xeryx]

"600"lbs was a typo, 1600 is what was meant.

Well, back in the day. I'm sure horses got hit by arrows. That is why they started putting on armor?! Usually the breast area of the horse was covered.
Point is you can go round and round with me on this, or anyone else for that matter. The problem with the game, which you did not acknowledge is the fact knights cannot dismount and fight. Since, A knight trumps an archer anyday (after all you don't just become a knight) in hand to hand combat.
Yes, that's right knights have armor unlike pigs.

Beside the unit "general's unit has 2 starting hitpoints, + any bonuses, so your arguement is moot anyway I do not really feel that this is a justified arguement, especially when you can get out wordpad and change the defensive values yourself.

[dm04]

I concure, with you guys for the most part. But horse units that are heavily armored should be able to really mess up most units. If the horse is unarmored however, units like two handed swordsman, halbediers, and any spear unit should be able to decimate calvery that are in close.

This encourages flank and rear attacks with these units. Kataphracts should be able to decimate anything but long spear wall units in a frontal charge.

100 archers, should die against any heavy calvery because they lack armor and skill with a sword. Plus the are cowards!!

I work for a medieval show (swordsman). From experience I can say (and already said in another thread). Fighting from the back of a horse is not that easy and very handicaped. When you attack/defend to the right, you are very vulnerable to the left and vice versa and you are realy realy vulnerable from the back as you cant turn around like a foot soldier. But the attack rating is improved... frist you strike from above, giving the strike more power. Then you bypass foot soldiers defense a bit easier, as holding a shield over the head for 2 hours is realy exhausting. The same for parrying... parrying from above is difficult, and you have to absorb more energy.

btw archers aren such cowards, especialy when there are 100, they know they would kill 10 heavy knights when the knights dont charge. This is an easy task.

in conclusion: a cavalry charge should be realy devastating (I would increase the charge bonus value). They regular attack is also >> regular footsoldier, I would say a cavalry soldier is better equiped and have higher armor value (which will increase his survivability). But a kite shield is a kite shield, no matter if its wield by a foot soldier or a "horseman". But the better training of a cavalry men is lowered by his handicaps of defending from a horse (mount). So they should be equal.

I think DV have anoter approach to this and want a powerful cavalry, well its his mod A drawback here is: the AI dont realy recognizes the value of cavalry, I barely engage and army with more then 2 cavalry units, while I have 4-8... the AI never have a chance.

[Marine Hoplite]

"The problem with the game, which you did not acknowledge is the fact knights cannot dismount and fight. Since, A knight trumps an archer anyday (after all you don't just become a knight) in hand to hand combat.
Yes, that's right knights have armor unlike pigs.

Beside the unit "general's unit has 2 starting hitpoints, + any bonuses, so your arguement is moot anyway I do not really feel that this is a justified arguement, especially when you can get out wordpad and change the defensive values yourself.

I agree, but since wer'e dealing with mounted cavalrymen in the game, that's what I'm talking about. loss of momentum=death. The knight can be as trained as he wants, but as long as he's mounted, all it will take is one good slice on a horses leg tendon, or even a hard smack on the snout, and he's going to be a dismounted knight. And those don't take a great deal training to be able to do, and can be done from 360 degrees around the horse. Making it impossible to defend against.

if wer'e going to talk about archers grouped around a mounted knight realisticly, then let's not ignore the fact that while the ones directly next to him will be fighting in a melee, the ones 20' away will put an arrow through him and his armor. At that range the knight might as well be wearing lasagne noodles.

I was'nt implying that a pig was as tough as a knight, only that it's not out of the question to hit a moving target.

BTW, I don't "just change the values" because I try to just test the files that darth puts out. Not fine tune them, that's his job. the testers were asked not to make small changes as it might unbalance something else in an oddball way.

[xeryx]

I agree, but since wer'e dealing with mounted cavalrymen in the game, that's what I'm talking about. loss of momentum=death. The knight can be as trained as he wants, but as long as he's mounted, all it will take is one good slice on a horses leg tendon, or even a hard smack on the snout, and he's going to be a dismounted knight. And those don't take a great deal training to be able to do, and can be done from 360 degrees around the horse. Making it impossible to defend against.

if wer'e going to talk about archers grouped around a mounted knight realisticly, then let's not ignore the fact that while the ones directly next to him will be fighting in a melee, the ones 20' away will put an arrow through him and his armor. At that range the knight might as well be wearing lasagne noodles.

I was'nt implying that a pig was as tough as a knight, only that it's not out of the question to hit a moving target.

BTW, I don't "just change the values" because I try to just test the files that darth puts out. Not fine tune them, that's his job. the testers were asked not to make small changes as it might unbalance something else in an oddball way.

1) To answer the original purpose of this post, NO! they are not over powered.

2) This is a game, and only represenative. Not Medieval total realism, that is probably another mod, that you might want to test.

3) You need to go do some battles, because there are plenty of units that can beat calvery, just not archers.

4) Since you can't mod, quit whining!! Darth is tired of whiners. Provide a solution to the "problem" otherwise you are whining.

5) You have only presented an opinion, (Just like me) not really based on anything you could prove! You have not based anything on fact. Besides it's just a game!!

[jester7707]

I try not to "whine", but it's kinda hard to provide an "answer" when you have no idea how to modify the files. So keep that in mind.

The tutorial's you can read in tw center are pretty much worthless.... you can't learn to code that way. More like....go to college to learn.

[dm04]

I wonder why everyone pulls the "whine" flag out when it comes to feedback that just doesnt fit the own opinion. Sorry cant see a whine from hoplite, just his opinion, I dont even see an ultimatum that says "hey this mod sucks because the cavalry is overpowered, change it". So Im sure Vader is fine with that. You know, he could still come over here and say "whatever the cavalry is, it will stay this way".

1) Well, if cavalry wouldnt be "strong" there would be no changes so far, but a) the cavalry got tuned down and b) infantry fighting cavalry (spearmen) were tuned up.

2) true that, but as you play any game, you try to understand it, to play it better. and to do so, you will use logic, and any logic is based on your experience, and this is affected by the reality. There are things that cant be done realisticaly due to game limitations, and those that can. But which will be used, is Vaders decision (not hoplites, not mine, and not yours).

3) I gues the archers were just an exxagerating example to point to something. Im doing a TON of battle tests and could give you another example: when you lose 8x spear militia to 1x se bodyguard and 1x peasants, you know there is something wrong.

4) Well, he is not here for solutions. YOU are here for solutions, as well as tiberiu, naimad, border reiver, me and the others. Just the regular player is here for feedback, bug reports, and opinion. Thats it

5) I fear we wont see a real battle between heavy cavalry and some spearmen, so it will be hard to prove anything. You could take my experience as a "show" swordsman into account, or not (but I fear better you wont receive), all we can do is to use logic.

Thats not against you X, but somehow I feel you are quite agressive here for no reason. (btw some feedback in diplomacy thread)

[Thorn]

Uhm.., you don't need to code anything all these files are TXT and XML.. Obviously it will be easier if u know how to code or how programs work, but mainly it's just playing with stats and variables...

[jester7707]

I'm overal pretty happy with the calvery.

I'm not happy with the comments being made to people that can only suggest features to be added/changed in the mod becaus of thier little knowlege of modding. And How thier considered to be "whiner's".
(As if it's thier fault they dont have the knowlege.)
Well I think I desereve more credit then to be a "whiner" since I've been a loyal Darth fan for longer than most here now. (As well as other "whiners" have.)

Is that what most modders think of us here?
I need a drink, or 2.


@Naimad : Goes to show you how little knowlege I have. lol

[xeryx]

First of all, you were whining, because you absolutely refuse to see anyone elses opinion. you made a topic asking for opinions. but yet your point of views seem to be the only correct ones. Once I called you on them an the inhearant flaws of the game.

Second of all I am grumpy, I had about 4 hours of sleep and have worked a 12 hr shift. Maybe you should try and be constructive. Try and base these opinions with facts.

BODYGUARDS ARE SUPPOSE TO BE VERY TOUGH!!!

Go try it with regular calvary and then come back and provide me with facts as DM04 has in many of his posts. Show us consistent kills ratios, not just your oppinion, because like me everyone has one.

So don't give me the "I'm offended" by the whiner comment, back up your statement with fact. When you ask someones oppinion, be prepared for the truth!!

[shonelli]

BODYGUARDS ARE SUPPOSE TO BE VERY TOUGH!!!

Yes, but wanna know how I play battles with Bodyguards? I just throw them at enemy, then I press ctrl+t (6x time acceleration), go awawy to make my self some cold drink, and when I'm back enemy is wasted and my generals still live... My opinion is like others - all heavy cavalry should be good but only in charges. I it just boring to see battles at 6x time acceleration.

[Marine Hoplite]

Second of all I am grumpy, I had about 4 hours of sleep and have worked a 12 hr shift.

For a long time people were posting complaining that cavalry charges that would destroy an entire unit in a few seconds were way overpowered. I thought that what my horse did to the fence was a good example of just how strong horses can be when they decide to. I also wanted to re iterate my opinion that once the cavalry stops moving they become very very vulnerable. The idea with the cavalry charge is to hit the infantry, do a huge amount of damage and get the hell out of there before the infantry can re orient themselves and attack the horsemen. You're right that heavy cavalry, especially bodyguard units should be tough. But your notion that 10 horsemen should be able to destroy 100+ bowmen while taking no casualties is just ignorant. If you're looking for that kind of a fantastically powerful unit then maybe you should go work on the LOTR mod and make your generals bodyguard one of those dragon flying worm things.

While I realise that this is'nt the total realism mod (RTR with Darth AI KICKED ASS!!!), it's also not a fantasy mod, and the real life FACT is that a cavalry charge was unstoppable, but if a cavalry charge gets bogged down in anything other than exhausted peasants they are going to die fairly quickly. Just like the knights who made it into the lines of archers at Crecy. Pulled down off of their horses and killed immediately. In fact ANY soldier, no matter how well trained and armored, is going to die if overwhelmed with numbers. for example the knights who made it to the archers at Agincourt. immediately knocked down and stabbed through the vision slot. Not just by archers, but ones that were so sick (dysentary I think) that they were severely weakened and fighting with no pants, nevermind armor. I'm sure that the french knights in both instances were highly skilled, highly trained, well equipped, killing machines but they simply could not contend with a swarm of opponents. The bottom line is that cavalry in melee is grossly overpowered, while the charge is perhaps a bit underpowered.

The specific incident I mentioned was with retinue longbowmen. That unit is/has been just as, if not a more capable light infantry unit as many of the normal infantry units. Mail, sword, small sheild, good stats, etc. They should be able to hold their own. As for your comment about other units killing cavalry. That's unbalanced as well, it takes FOREVER for even mailed spearmen to kill bogged down cavalry. That's simply unrealistic.

While I'm not some uber modding genius, like you evidently think you are, I did grow up on and around horses and I am a somewhat above average archer who makes all my own gear. So I feel like I have a little bit better grasp than most on the relative merits and disadvantages of both. I'm also not new to DM. I've been using his mod since DMRTW 3 or 4. I also managed to beat DM8 on vh/vh. So I do know what I'm talking about. I can't wait for DM MIITW to get to the same level of refinement as the DMRTW did. I was hoping to participate and assist in getting it to that point, but making heavy cavalry into indestructable furry tanks just because you've mixed up medieval knights with jedi knights is certainly not going to get it to that point!