Using Javelins/Naffatun/other short-range skirmishers

[timmy1992]

I can't figure out a way to use short-ranged skirmishers effectively.

They either kill my own troops or get flanked by cavalry. Does anyone have any tips?

[delra]

I place Naffatun behind my worst infantry (the one that will be charged by enemy heaviest troops, ${god} bless AI) and allow them to throw things at enemy troops when they are running at me. Naffatun can stop charging swordsmen before they hit your lines. It's devastating. And I love it. :-)

Javelins i don't use too much, usually when there's nothing else to use and i need something that won't rout at first sign of enemy being on the same continent. Usually i do the same, put them in the back, make them throw what they have and then charge to get rid of their upkeep costs and make them take some hits that would land on my better infantry otherwise.

[Saibot]

i barely use them myself. but when I use them it's when the enemy attack one of my settlements they are quite useful to harass the enemy from a small street and then just run away to another street to harass them again. I can't think of any other use for them otherwise.

[delra]

I protest against putting naphta and javelins into one topic.

Javelins are nothing more than cannon fodder.

BUT

Naffatun are the best units in the game, a bunch of average looking guys that can unleash hell on your one click. Place them over a gate and see what happens to those who come through. Place them behind your troops and see if anything will dare to charge them. Play a custom battle, 1x Naffatun vs 1x most elite swordsmen you can imagine and see who will win. :-)

[FailedCrusade]

I'm a big fan of the naffatun also. To use them correctly you should turn off the skirmish mode and place them in loose formation. Keep them behind some infantry so they don't get engaged and have plenty of time to hurl their pots. If the flanks are well protected you should move them around and hit enemy units in the back.

And javelin infantry is worthless in my view.

[Battlehawk]

Javelins are handy when used right, for example with light horsemen (desert cavalry, jinetes, boyar sons, polish nobles, and grenadine jinetes) they are excellent general killers, as they are AP weapons and usually either have speed or the ability to go hand to hand, thus bieng able to hopefully crush the weakened general unit when used properly, or when the AI decides to send generals out alone or with a small escort they can easily remove such a foe from the map.

[delra]

The problem is that their range forces you to have them running around the place after the guy they are supposed to hunt down. And this can cause a disaster.

[MattErickson]

I'm gonna try that naffatun vs elite swordsman thing and I'll take the swords and see if I can pull a win

..............


Naffatun got owned!

First I took Moorish Dismounted Christian Guard against Turkish Naffatun, set them on loose formation and charged. By the time the Naffaun were about to unleash hell I got within range and they skirmished outta there. I chased them around the map until they hit the red border and I killed their captain. They fled to centre and held again, I did the same thing again. This time when I hit the border they fled. But when I charged the second time they got a few shots off because they had reloaded from before, but nonetheless, I only lost 1 man.

The second battle I took Egyptian Naffatun against English Dismounted Knights. I disabled skirmish, let off a volley and failed to retreat in time. Needless to say I did some damage but they slaughtered my guys and my captain aswell.

[Kalos]

Ha! Infantry wins!

[MattErickson]

Take that all you naffatun crazy people who say they rock, they kept getting pushed back. Yes I know that if there is a battle line they are usefull behind units but the challange was 1 naffatun vs 1 elite infantry anyday, naffatun would win, and clearly, they got raped.

[delra]

They can win with elephants!

[T-wester]

first disable skirmish mode imo its useless, i often use javalin men against dismounted knights and they are great for weaken a strong unit and keep a heavy inf/chavalry-unit nearby

[daffyff]

Just finished a tentative trial on naffatun v. elite infantry.

These are tentative results being that i only dedicated an hour to it. my base units are turkish naffatuns with maxed upgrades and xp vs. HRE dismounted feudal knights.

1v1 naffatun will lose. even when xp, armor and weapon upgrades maxed for just the naffatun. they can only let out one or two volleys by the time melee is joined, however they were able to take out 30 DFKs before dying off, 15 during melee. being that DFK cost 575 to train and 225 upkeep vs. the naffatuns costing 380 and 50 upkeep seems like a good outcome to me.

2v1 is more feasible. at first i tried to line up one behind the other, but the DFK were actually able to run through the first line and into the second thus incapacitating both in melee. However, if they are placed side by side with a large gap between, than the DFK have to attack one while the other is free to continue firing. under this condition the DFK were wiped out while the naffatun only lost 3 units.

Tried it with Dismounted Gothic Knights, Zwei handers, dismounted conquistadors, all with maxed out xp and upgrades. 2 naffatun v. 1 elite infantry seems to win with very good results, the biggest loss being against the zweihanders probably because they are faster to melee. maybe if all units had no xp or upgrades the results would be different, being that the naffatun seemed to have really good aim. might try that tomorrow.

[Khassaki]

I use javelins a lot and find them very effective. They are good on walls as they outfight most archers and can butcher a unit with ladders faster then archers. They're cheap and so effective in woods and cities, I always have a couple in every city. Naffatun are amazingly long range for a hand thrown weapon so can be used over your own troops or from the flank of an ongoing fight, just don't get run over by cavalry. They are also good in the little space over the main gate, they can drop their grenades into the crowd just inside the gate once the enemy break in.

[crazyj]

Javelinmen are great. They throw their heavy ap rounds then they are light sword infantry. Either put em in front and leave skirmish off so they chuck em then serve as the frontline wavebreaker or put em behind your first line so they can throw them all before you charge/flank.

[gogis]

I don't like javelinmen, but i felt in love with Naffatun when played Egypt, it's simply any battle breaker.
Actualy, with my cavalry it's most micro requiring unit, but breaking 100-300 kills from 1-2 Naffa units happens very often.

There is one trick i use pretty often - enemy spearmen or even other inf. tend to not attack my superior heavy infantry units, so when i advance my infantry, i don't send it enemy stack, i just stop in several yards and start to hurl death by naffatunians, that just stay behind my infantry.
It's pure slaughter.

Aslo it's amazing general/heavy troops killer,just swarm them with your infantry and then start attacking by naffa.

According to stats after battle, my javelinmen never get any good kill/death ratio and i prefer longer lasting troops, so i can fight several battles without reinforcment, javelinmen simply not worth anything.

They do prolly 4-10 kills even with skirmish mode off, because route to fast.

So they hurl their javelins, kill 5 infantries with seemingly nice AP bonus, then advance to melee, kill another 5, losing 10-15 and then route and losing another 20?

I can't use them behind my infantry, because they kill more my men, than enemy ones... bleh.. Not worth, imo

[avesta]

when you place the naffatuns above a gate, are they actually able to throw their weapons into the heap of men cramming through the gate, or do they have high minimum distance for throwing, which only allows them to throw against units which are actually some distance away from the gate?

Khassaki, when you say "inside the gate", do you mean the area that the enemy goes once he has actually passed the gate?

[gogis]

when you place the naffatuns above a gate, are they actually able to throw their weapons into the heap of men cramming through the gate, or do they have high minimum distance for throwing, which only allows them to throw against units which are actually some distance away from the gate?

Khassaki, when you say "inside the gate", do you mean the area that the enemy goes once he has actually passed the gate?

Like any other ranged unit, naffa can't shot Ram troops or troops into gates, tested it many times.

There is one glitch that makes me mad always. When you under siege, your ranged units often get 'shooting' flag, but when you watch closely - they actually dont shoot.
So i am forced to manually assigning targets every now and then. It seems that archers like to shoot far away, when target is closer, only first rank shoot, when uber close - noone.

Same can happen on battlefield. Recently, when i started to micro naffatuns alot, and also sometimes other ranged units, i noticed that bug, when only 1-2 soldiers actually shot, or everybody stay and doing nothing, while having 'shooting' flag.
It's pretty self explanatory, i mean archers use volley technique, so when enemy advance, they can only do point blank shots, so thats why rear ranks stop shooting. It's actually weird, in real life front rank would continue to make point blank shots, while rear would switch to far targets.

Another dumb example - 1 soldier of your ranged unit got stuck in melee, while others stay miles away, but they CANT shoot, because having melee flag... Sorry, but i can't stand it, it's dumb

Coupled with cavalry charge bugs it's real headache to micro anything.
So i pay attention to fights and actually fight instead of autoresolve only when autobattling is a lose or huge casualties.

p.s. I think, that archers don't shoot when they have autofire enable. Seems like they cease firing when friendly fire is a serious problem, as AI thinks.
In recent tests i forced bombard to shoot directly thru my troops, when i disabled autofiring. Same happened with naffatuns, granted, they slaughtered half of my militia fodder, but also heavy infantry of enemy.
Need more testing.

[Khassaki]

when you place the naffatuns above a gate, are they actually able to throw their weapons into the heap of men cramming through the gate, or do they have high minimum distance for throwing, which only allows them to throw against units which are actually some distance away from the gate?

Khassaki, when you say "inside the gate", do you mean the area that the enemy goes once he has actually passed the gate?

You can convince them to throw at the mass of the unit using the ram but not the ram, and yes I meant once the enemy are through the gate and cordoned off by my units it was possible to convince them to thow straight down into the mess inside the main gate. Visually the naffatun isn't much so I was surprised by the 220 kills for a 16 man unit

[Gabriel A]

I am a big proponent of skirmish/light infantry.

In my campaign stacks I try to have at least 3 brigades of such infantry. Depending on the size and composition of the enemy force I use them differently.

Enemy without much cavalry -

I put the light infantry far,,,,,,very far,,out on my flanks (always hiding them if possible). When the main battle lines start to join I send the light infantry around and behind the enemy to engage his missle units if present, and then javelin the enemy line from behind (perhaps this is more in RTW, where javelins are everywhere) where they are far more effective in killing. I may or may not use them, depending on melee stats, to charge the enemy line from behind. If there is no place to hide the enemy may sometimes send his units on a wild chase for your light infantry and result with his units being tired and not effecting the main battle.

Enemy with much cavalry -

Much more limited, I use them directly in front of my main line to javelin the enemy and then retreat behind the line, where I use them as a reserve.