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  1. #1

    Default Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    So I'm playing as Denmark and I've got my nice little northern European empire, and I get a message that the Mongol invasion is coming. I'm not too worried because they're not likely to come anywhere close to me, but I like to track the invaders with a spy just out of curiosity to see where they're going.

    So I find them on the Russian steppe, follow them for a few turns, and then lose them, so I have no idea where they went. But they definitely did appear in Europe.

    However, it's been about 30-40 turns since then, and they haven't taken over a single territory yet. Not one! They did declare war on Russia, but the Russian territories are still completely intact, and I kind of doubt that Russia (who has been extremely weak in this campaign) could have turned them away.

    Anyone ever see this happen? A Mongol non-invasion?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    yeah dont worry the will weakeup sooner or later, thats my exp.

    I belive that when they firts appear in the game, the first units are just
    scouts of some sort and after a while the main army will appear, and the
    actual conquest will follow shortly.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    In my curent Byzantine campaign the same thing happened, they wondered around for maybe 40-45 turns, even accepted an alliance with me, and then one turn decided to take antioch from Egypt and after that attacked me. I am kind of holding them around Adana but after maybe 7-8 battles I am running out of soliders and even when I win a battle I loose too much. I guess I have made too much economy buildings and not enough military.
    Ugly as the north end of a pig going south

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  4. #4
    NobleNick's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oklop
    ... I guess I have made too much economy buildings and not enough military.
    Almost certainly not. You did the right thing. You need economy to build up and support armies. Of course, now might be the right time to use that money to build fortifications and pump out units. This is a war of attrition, wherein your healthy economic engine will serve you well as you wear down your enemy.

    Fill your forward cities with at least 8 units of spear militia and 6 units of Trebizond (or Byz Guard) Archers, and build up the wall defenses. Cavalry does not do well in cities. Cavalry does not do well against spears. Cavalry does not do well when packed tight and standing still and getting shot in the back by archers. Engineer your defense so that the Mongol cavalry is forced to do all three of these things, preferably all three simultaneously.

    If I had to meet them on the field (Ugh! Note: I have never done this against Mongols, but am basing this off of scores of like battles against other factions in M2TW and in RTW) I would do at least one of the following three things:

    1.) Build 2 or more full stacks of Vardariotoi and/or Kataphractoi, which will cost you about 32000 plus 10000/turn in upkeep. (Here is where your good economy comes into play.) Vardariotoi are roughly equivalent to the Mongol Heavy Archer; and Kataphractoi, if they can force a melee engagement, look slightly better at hand-to-hand combat. Approach Mongol stacks from uphill. Park one stack next to a Mongol stack and attack with the other. If you can't get at isolated Mongol stacks, try to kill off the first stack before enemy reinforcements arrive.

    2.) Need a cheaper option? Build 2 or more full stacks of: 10 Spear Militia + 2 Varangian Guard + 8 (Trebizond or Byz Guard) Archers. This time, gaining high ground is more important. Try to get attacked on the campaign map (rather than attacking). Form a defensive spear line in a corner of the map or against a mountain or other natural obstacle. Put spears on guard mode. Have your V.G. in loose formation behind the spear line and ready to reinforce. Have your archers all in loose formation in the protected pocket, with scirmish mode = "off" and set to "fire at will". Sit back and have a snack as you watch the battle. Stop snacking and send your V.G. into action if your spear line starts to fold.

    3.) An even cheaper option, if the geography allows it: Build one stack of: 10 Spear Militia + 2 Varangian Guard + 8 (Trebizond or Byz Guard) Archers (just like one of the stacks from option 2). Use it to control a bridge.

    Again, getting attacked on the campaign map is key to victory on the tactical map.

    Your archers have longer range than the mounted archers. Place them off to your left flank, where they can shoot into the enemy's right (unshielded) flank. Leave them on loose formation. Put your spears in a 'U' formation at the end of the bridge. Form the 'U' such that the first enemy unit can come almost completely off the bridge and get spears poked into them from the front and from both flanks. Pack other units in behind your 'U'. If the enemy stack includes infantry, you might want to use V.G. on the side of the 'U' away from the archers.

    Try to target your archers onto enemy units which are not quite up to the front of the bridge, to avoid shooting your own men in the back. Some feel that simply blocking off the bridge with spears (not forming a 'U' pocket) is better, since there is less exposure of your men to your own archers. IF you have enough archers to quickly exterminate the enemy before your front line folds(and if you followed my recipe, you do) than this might be a better option for overall reduced friendly casualties.

    What typically happens in these bridge battles is that the first men across the bridge get slaughtered in your 'U' pocket. Meanwhile, the rest of the enemy stack gets stuck on the bridge, packed in tight, with their unshielded side facing your archers. And the archers slaughter them, like shooting fish n a barrel. Meanwhile, the enemy troops in the pocket (what is left of them) rout. As the routers flee back across the bridge, they take more casualties, break up the formation of troops trying to get across the bridge to attack your spears, and spread decreased morale to the enemy. IF you have enough archer power (and 8 units of Trebizonds is way MORE than enough) the battle turns into a big turkey shoot, with as-yet-unrouted units standing on the bridge waiting their turn to take an arrow.

    I have dozens of heroic victories in RTW and M2TW (on H/H and VH/VH settings), based on this one tactic, alone; many of them with less than a full stack against multiple enemy stacks.
    Last edited by NobleNick; March 12, 2008 at 01:46 PM.

  5. #5
    SPARTAN VI's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    Quote Originally Posted by NobleNick View Post
    Almost certainly not. You did the right thing. You need economy to build up and support armies. Of course, now might be the right time to use that money to build fortifications and pump out units. This is a war of attrition, wherein your healthy economic engine will serve you well as you wear down your enemy.

    Fill your forward cities with at least 8 units of spear militia and 6 units of Trebizond (or Byz Guard) Archers, and build up the wall defenses. Cavalry does not do well in cities. Cavalry does not do well against spears. Cavalry does not do well when packed tight and standing still and getting shot in the back by archers. Engineer your defense so that the Mongol cavalry is forced to do all three of these things, preferably all three simultaneously.
    Sound advise, almost wish I'd kept some of my archers on the walls to rain arrows down on their backs once they've breached Iconium.

    If I had to meet them on the field (Ugh! Note: I have never done this against Mongols, but am basing this off of scores of like battles against other factions in M2TW and in RTW) I would do at least one of the following three things:

    1.) Build 2 or more full stacks of Vardariotoi and/or Kataphractoi, which will cost you about 32000 plus 10000/turn in upkeep. (Here is where your good economy comes into play.) Vardariotoi are roughly equivalent to the Mongol Heavy Archer; and Kataphractoi, if they can force a melee engagement, look slightly better at hand-to-hand combat. Approach Mongol stacks from uphill. Park one stack next to a Mongol stack and attack with the other. If you can't get at isolated Mongol stacks, try to kill off the first stack before enemy reinforcements arrive.

    2.) Need a cheaper option? Build 2 or more full stacks of: 10 Spear Militia + 2 Varangian Guard + 8 (Trebizond or Byz Guard) Archers. This time, gaining high ground is more important. Try to get attacked on the campaign map (rather than attacking). Form a defensive spear line in a corner of the map or against a mountain or other natural obstacle. Put spears on guard mode. Have your V.G. in loose formation behind the spear line and ready to reinforce. Have your archers all in loose formation in the protected pocket, with scirmish mode = "off" and set to "fire at will". Sit back and have a snack as you watch the battle. Stop snacking and send your V.G. into action if your spear line starts to fold.

    3.) An even cheaper option, if the geography allows it: Build one stack of: 10 Spear Militia + 2 Varangian Guard + 8 (Trebizond or Byz Guard) Archers (just like one of the stacks from option 2). Use it to control a bridge.

    Again, getting attacked on the campaign map is key to victory on the tactical map.

    Your archers have longer range than the mounted archers. Place them off to your left flank, where they can shoot into the enemy's right (unshielded) flank. Leave them on loose formation. Put your spears in a 'U' formation at the end of the bridge. Form the 'U' such that the first enemy unit can come almost completely off the bridge and get spears poked into them from the front and from both flanks. Pack other units in behind your 'U'. If the enemy stack includes infantry, you might want to use V.G. on the side of the 'U' away from the archers.

    Try to target your archers onto enemy units which are not quite up to the front of the bridge, to avoid shooting your own men in the back. Some feel that simply blocking off the bridge with spears (not forming a 'U' pocket) is better, since there is less exposure of your men to your own archers. IF you have enough archers to quickly exterminate the enemy before your front line folds(and if you followed my recipe, you do) than this might be a better option for overall reduced friendly casualties.

    What typically happens in these bridge battles is that the first men across the bridge get slaughtered in your 'U' pocket. Meanwhile, the rest of the enemy stack gets stuck on the bridge, packed in tight, with their unshielded side facing your archers. And the archers slaughter them, like shooting fish n a barrel. Meanwhile, the enemy troops in the pocket (what is left of them) rout. As the routers flee back across the bridge, they take more casualties, break up the formation of troops trying to get across the bridge to attack your spears, and spread decreased morale to the enemy. IF you have enough archer power (and 8 units of Trebizonds is way MORE than enough) the battle turns into a big turkey shoot, with as-yet-unrouted units standing on the bridge waiting their turn to take an arrow.

    I have dozens of heroic victories in RTW and M2TW (on H/H and VH/VH settings), based on this one tactic, alone; many of them with less than a full stack against multiple enemy stacks.

    One more thing to add. I'd spam Sipahis and Sipahi Lancers and place them adjacent to a sieged city/castle. When the Mongols are in town, they will siege. These Sipahi (cavalry, if you didn't know) armies would provide AI reinforcements in an attempt to level the playing field. Speed was important as I was often up against 2 or 3 stacks at a time (over 3500 units).

    I also learned not to panic when they brought rockets to the walls. They always ran out of rockets before they'd actually breach. Usually ran out when they've done around 80% to a single section of wall, so they'd resort to using their rams. I've yet to see a Mongol stack sporting more than one rocket unit. Two rocket units concentrated on a section of a fully upgraded wall would topple it easily. A single unit was harmless (as long as the garrison wasn't stationed on that section of the wall).
    Last edited by SPARTAN VI; March 12, 2008 at 04:59 PM.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    Yeah well, that's how they're programed. They roam about and do nothing for a very long time and then they usually settle-down in the Middle-East. When that's done, they're a formidable force because a lot of their Horde-stacks still roam around the map.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sextus Loverlord View Post
    Yeah well, that's how they're programed. They roam about and do nothing for a very long time and then they usually settle-down in the Middle-East. When that's done, they're a formidable force because a lot of their Horde-stacks still roam around the map.
    Yeah, I was just confused because every other campaign I played they appeared, and then pretty quickly made a beeline to Antioch or another middle eastern city, usually declaring war on Egypt and/or the Turks. Usually within a few turns they've got a nice little empire carved out.

    But they've been wandering around semi-peacefully for a long time now, so I thought that was odd.

    Maybe because they took the 'northern invasion route' this time, and hit Russia instead of appearing near Baghdad...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    Well, in my Turkish campaign the Mongols were a little more aggressive,
    they will mostly invade where the southern desert is.
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  9. #9
    Lord Romanus III's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    Hey, just a small tip for you kids. It is really easy to beat the mongols as egypt or turks. When Jihad get all the cheap merc unit and everytime you jihad, make sure they all have a general to command them. Whether they fight or not they will gain xp! So when the mongols pop up, you can use your uber-experienced soldiers to smash the mongols or have time to raise an army of elites.
    P.S. If you don't want the lazy mongols attack them yourself.

    Cordially, Lord Romanus III

  10. #10
    Grand Duke Vytautas's Avatar Dueling it out
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    I think this issue of mongols doing nothing can be explained that they have 3 invasions and long spawning time between them. So first group say moves into russian steppes, but then 2nd invasion appears, so 1st waits for 2nd to consolidate (cause I've noticed mongol stacks move in unison, stack next to stack) and thus they can spend 100s of years 'consolidating' which is just stupid and not challenging at all.

    So to partly solve this 'mongol sleeping/doing nothing' issue of marching endlessly in steppes, I edited campaign_script.txt and made that mongols appear a bit later (like 1224-1241), but 3 waves of mongol invasion appear in shorter intervals (personally I have it 5-10 turns betweem next invasion appear) so mongols strike later but hard and very fast, which makes it very challenging (you've got 10+ stack going for your throat) as in real history

    Hope somebody has better suggestions on how to improve the fear of mighty mongols
    Cheers
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  11. #11
    Irishmafia2020's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    I have read of the Mongols invadeing Europe, but the key to where they advance to is that certian cities are "horde targets" - just as some are crusade/jihad targets. If you edit it, you could designate Vienna or Constantinople as horde targets, and then they will be more of a threat to Europe.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    they either go West towards Hungary / Constantinople or go after Egypt. I've seen both. Im playing as Milan and they came as far west as to take Zagreb from me before I had massive attrition battles. If your struggling with them, hold them until the Timirud's show up to their east. they usually scramble back east with their stacks leaving their western approach open for the taking.,

  13. #13

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    original poster here...
    The Mongols finally did settle down, taking Kiev (which was a rebel settlement since throwing off their Polish overlords.)

    The very next thing they did was go straight for my territory of Villanus and attack.

    So hooray, they're active and on the warpath.

  14. #14
    King Yngvar's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    So to partly solve this 'mongol sleeping/doing nothing' issue of marching endlessly in steppes, I edited campaign_script.txt and made that mongols appear a bit later (like 1224-1241), but 3 waves of mongol invasion appear in shorter intervals (personally I have it 5-10 turns betweem next invasion appear) so mongols strike later but hard and very fast, which makes it very challenging (you've got 10+ stack going for your throat) as in real history
    How did you do it??
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  15. #15
    Idaeus's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    My experience is that the Mongols nearly always take a settlement within 5 turns, its only happened once that they waited for like 20 turns befre doing anything.
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  16. #16
    SPARTAN VI's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    In my HRE campaign, I didn't see them at all. Playing as the Turks now, they seem to have a bone to pick with me. Relentless seiges on two towns that I eventually converted to castles to fend them off, then they've sent their second and third waves straight for Antioch. I cut them off with fortresses at choke points: valley's, bridges, anything to slow their advance but they always plowed right over them.

    When they finally reached Antioch, I'd always faced 3500 vs. my 1500 or so men (no reinforcement limit). After fighting back one siege, the next two or three stacks would step up and reinitiate a siege. It was tough, I had very few opportunities to squeeze in reinforcements from neighboring towns. Luckily, I had my faction heir in the down and he was only 19. By the age of 22 he already had 10 command points, but still too young to have any authority.

    As their forces dwindled to 1 and a half stacks, they sieged my former capital Iconium and took it by surprise. I had a small garrison as I was expecting them to go to Constantinople. They razed my town and I resisted the urge to reload the game. It was their dying breath really. I squashed them the next turn, to only lay siege to, the now rebel town, Iconium a turn later.
    Last edited by SPARTAN VI; March 10, 2008 at 01:30 PM.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Where's the feared Mongol invasion?

    In my HRE save they quickly rushed across europe(I was lucky enough to get them to ally with me )and blitzed Denmark too. Whereas in my England save they're just sitting around Jerusalem. I'm waiting in horror for the Timurids, though.

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