Islamic generals are hugely overpowered

[Kyias]

psh, NO, it's just my opinion, but NO, what are you guys thinking? i mean i don't really understand? Cavalry are very very powerful unit in medieval time, they could very well be the strongest type of troops, ever wondered why the mongols sweeped europe and middle east? Because of their superior archery and best cavalry in the known world. The cavalry in medieval time is very powerful, realistically, they keep charging back and force, but since this is a game, mobility have decreased a big time, and that will be made up by powering up the cavalrys. When i was playing older versions, i was always frustrated by how much my cavalry sucks, their charge barely works and very few damage is being done. I love darth mod, it is way better than RC, RC just balanced some little things, there are things that i agree with in there, such as knights being so much more powerful than peasants, BUT, their battle system is not even much better than vanilla IMO. Someone explain to me, why you would possibly want RC over Darth mod. Don't get me wrong, RC is great, but i don't believe there is a better battle mod out there at the moment

TBH I wonder how you used your cav before this change...

for me if I had 5 unis of cav I could sweep the field in 3.2 and take out half the standing army of my enemy with tactics..

the other half would ussually be engaged with my infantry which won me battles.

Cav were powerful in those times but they were not THAT powerful. The reason the mongols swept those regions is because those same mongols were VERY experienced fighters. It is like sending in marines compared to Army. They got the same gear, it is the tactics and the ability that makes the difference.

Cav were VERY powerful before this change...now it is just out of whack.

[Mike13531]

omg, that's a lie, pikemen kill cavalry easily, i had english cavalry charged my byzantium pikemen, all of 80 of died, and my 68 of my pikemen remaining, so that proves your arguement to be fause, pikemen is also "overpowered" in darth mod, they were rebalanced, but they are still strong. Tel you what, if you have trouble fighting cavalries, then you must be noobs, no offense, i mean i kill cavalry easily even with spearmen, let alone pikemen... jesus..

kyias, no, that's not true. I swear to god, i know much much about the mongols, i read Genghis biography and all about their history, and films about them too. No, because they have superior cavalry and they are fearless warriors, all soldiers are willilng to die for Genghis causes, and for the fun of taking women from cities and exterminate populations... And no, it's not possible to take out half an army with cavalry in 3.2... besides, in this, the cavalry charges straight into the formation, which causes them harder to get out of it, so in some cases, if your stuck in middle of pikemen, your dead.
wow, if you all just gonna use opinions, fine, but don't even try to say RC is better than darth mod, because it is not. You guys have nothing to prove that

[Parzival]

Tel you what, if you have trouble fighting cavalries, then you must be noobs, no offense, i mean i kill cavalry easily even with spearmen, let alone pikemen... jesus..

wow, if you all just gonna use opinions, fine, but don't even try to say RC is better than darth mod, because it is not. You guys have nothing to prove that

That's all it is, Mike. Personal opinion.

omgz u r teh noob.

[Mike13531]

let's not make this thread into a flame thread, honestly, if you have more to say, feel free to pm me . I swear i won't make rude comments in pms either.

btw, who exactly is the noob here? I have evidence and opinion to backup my statement, what have you got, nothing. So don't talk.. lol

[Parzival]

I was only joking bro. My personal preference is RC and that's all it is - personal preference.

[delra]

Yeah, in darthmod the only things that work on cavalry are long pikes and other overpowered cavalry but with maces, axes and stuff - like cataphroctoi or norse clerics. There's no chance normal infantry, even spearmen, managed to kill heavy cavalry unit without taking insane losses. So you either bring a lot of your own cavalry, bring pikes or install RC.

I hope it's a bug Darth is aware of and will fix it. I really like other changes and fixes done by his mod. I just don't want to lose 10 units of nubian spearmen while taking Mecca from damn camel raiders. It's too much. :-)

[King_Sulieman_YHWH]

On the subject of Medieval East vs West 'who was better mano e mano',

I think it depends from place to place, really. There were some exceptional Western fighters, as were there Eastern ones. If training and equipment greatly improve the chances of a fighter becoming "exceptional", then the wealth and organization of the Kingdom in question combined with the history of that particular region will determine who has the highest number of exceptional fighters, realisticly.

This means the biggest and richest Empires should have the best fighters. Biggest not in size of territory alone but also population. And being big MUST go along with being rich, you need both, just one means lots of sucky troops and the other means very few good troops. You need both.

And every empire ,in the world that has had both of these requirements, up into the modern times of today, has had the highest number of exceptional fighters. The horse, chariot, sword, bow, and shield of old days has become the Humvee, Rocket Launcher, Machine gun, and Airplane/Helicopter of today. The best equipped are also the best trained, as the best equipment requires some training to be used effectively. So you have riches(equipment), and smarts(organization) via the training. You end up with bad arse fighters.. regaredless of era, you can even look at todays world and apply it.

Going off of this sound logic IMO, Bodyguards should be the best fighters, for both sides. So they should be roughly equal, a King's guard is the BEST .. doesnt matter what Kingdom, they will put up the best for the King, or any Noble. Then, coming in second should be Knightly Orders and elite Sects (Western Crusader Knights and Eastern Hashasham among others like Mamluks), then should come the "regular" Knights on horse, then should come the elite fighting men on foot, then the decent men on horseback, then the decent men on foot, then the crappy guys on horse, and finally, at the lowest, your crappy guys on foot. So i dont see the problem after the Real Combat mod, or the Darth mod, both fix the SS4.0 into a more accurate game.

[King_Sulieman_YHWH]

I just don't want to lose 10 units of nubian spearmen while taking Mecca from damn camel raiders. It's too much. :-)

Hurray for Mecca being added in this mod. "Men, we are Crusading to Mecca for our Lord Christ.." Huh?

Now all we need is a Patriarch for the Orthodox Church, and the election system (no mission system needed), and we'll be good!!!

[delra]

To be honest, I never in my numerous games saw a crusade launched on Mecca, nor a jihad.

Anyway, Mecca has a unit of camel archers that just with subsequent charges can trash LOTS of troops. I sent only nubian spearmen and kurdish javelinmen as i was cheap and didn't want to build anything in Medina which would be lost during its conversion into a city.

I had just barracks so i trained 10 nubian spearmen and 4 javelinmen and thought it's enough.

I lost everybody due to damn camels charging me, slaughtering half a unit and running away. I had to send cavalry down there, it was humiliating.

[Volkograd]

omg, that's a lie, pikemen kill cavalry easily, i had english cavalry charged my byzantium pikemen, all of 80 of died, and my 68 of my pikemen remaining, so that proves your arguement to be fause, pikemen is also "overpowered" in darth mod, they were rebalanced, but they are still strong. Tel you what, if you have trouble fighting cavalries, then you must be noobs, no offense, i mean i kill cavalry easily even with spearmen, let alone pikemen... jesus..

I dont really know how your game plays out, but when I was using Darthmod, I could slaughter pikemen and spearmen unitsleft and right with just one cav unit and minimal losses. And it's not the fact that I have trouble beating cavalry... I'm playing Kievan Rus, and they are a pretty cav heavy faction. Its the fact that its too easy to destroy everyone else with my own cavalry. I'll repeat again; every type of unit needs to have an effective counter.

wow, if you all just gonna use opinions, fine, but don't even try to say RC is better than darth mod, because it is not. You guys have nothing to prove that

No one has said that... everyone is just stating their preference of the two. you're the one turning this into some sort of confrontation.


@ King Sulieman - a patriarch for the orthodox church would be awesome, I must say.

[whhyy]

I think Eastern Generals Bodyguard should have bows and the west should have sword & shield with a considerable armor buff or something.

[Anarion]

yeah, but you do realize that since before roman times, even before alexander, there has always been a huge mass of bodies coming from the east. The majority of the time throughout history the east had superior numbers.

It's because people love to see themselves in a good light, glorify themselves and the lucky ones are those whose own written history survived (and thus their portrayal of their enemies) and did not get burnt or destroyed. It's like guys bragging about a brawl which never happened or never happened in the way it's getting told. When Roman Emperors or generals got killed or captured in battles they were either tricked, betrayed by their own people or just very old. Oh, how sad, it was never anything else, how unglorious.

Its kinda funny if you look at it, if you go from west to east the size of empires and populations rise. Look at persia, india, then china, and so on and so forth. There is a very strong basis for the argument that the west was always outnumbered, not just a silly myth like you believe.

Why should a bigger landmass equate with more people? What about habitability, access to water, fertile soil?

As to the effectiveness of western military elite vs. eastern military elite, no one really knows. Even considering all of what we know you cant so who was better overall, it comes down to so many individual factors its impossible to say.

Yes, but we're here for the OP's whine. He could actually just edit the EDU himself or try abandoning fairytales.

[Quark]

Ok, I am going to venture an OPINION

Balance:I belive that the RC is a better historic EDU because people have sat down and gone through every unit and compared to its historical equivilent. They have talked to weapons and armour people, checked stats, and dug out the historic battles. Hence the 'Real' part of the title. I'am not saying it does not need some SSv4 game balance as far as costs go, because the 'real life' economic model may not match the SS model. Hence I know that the cavalry are about right as far as the CA mechanics allow.

Yes cavalry were very powerful in a charge, but they were not in melee combat, and at the moment thats not true in the Darth version. I am not blaming Darth, it just needs someone to spend a few weeks sorting the EDU out. Even then you have to do the animations otherwise, just have an army of TH units and hit autocalc, you will win every time.

Size of Armies:As to West vs East, people, read about war in china, they had armies numbering 1 million men (see Battle of Lake Poyang), the Mongols had a HORDE numbering over 400,000. In the west you fought with may be 10's of thousands of men (Agincourt 6000 vs approx 25,000). So as to armies well I would pick east, as to warriors I would go with west.

[whhyy]

What about tactics though?

The east is (usually) professional, they're there to win not to play silly games of chivalry.

[Ludicus]

Mike13531 wrote:

omg, that's a lie, pikemen kill cavalry easily.

By the way,hold your tongue.
As I said before,any cavalry unit ,even weak,can defeat a pikemen unit ;for instance,try a light cavalry unit -ex: mounted sargeants- against one aventuros unit.
Results in costum battle,hard difficulty,grassy plain:
Aventuros: men remaining: 5 men lost: 108
Monted Sargeants (light cavalry) : men lost:15 men remaining: 46
As you see,the pikemen units are completely useless even against light cavalry.
(Currently playing with SS4+Hotfix 3+hardcore mod)

i had english cavalry charged my byzantium pikemen, all of 80 of died, and my 68 of my pikemen remaining

Let us see...another test with english cavalry against byzantium pikemen: Knights Templars against Guard Pikemen:
Results (in same conditions) :
Knights Templars: men lost :19 men remaining: 42 enemies killed : 77 (victory,of course)
Guard Pikemen : men lost : 78 men remaining : 35 enemies killed : 22
Are we playing the same mod?
Quark wrote,and very well:

Balance:I belive that the RC is a better historic EDU because...

Agreed,but I don´t use RC because this mod (RC) is not fully compatible with Hardcore mod.

Yes cavalry were very powerful in a charge, but they were not in melee combat, and at the moment thats not true in the Darth version

Well,in the last Darth version, cavalry and pikemen are balanced.(try their last files)

[shaeffer]

Agreed,but I don´t use RC because this mod (RC) is not fully compatible with Hardcore mod.

The only difference between the mods is the absence of the dismounted Mamluk units.

I'll include that in RC if y'like

Shaeff

[Ludicus]

The only difference between the mods is the absence of the dismounted Mamluk units.

I'll include that in RC if y'like

Shaeff

That is very kind of you,shaeffer
Thanks in advance!

[Edelward]

Mameluks were superior to most western cavalry, if not all. It's time that certain myths die because it's ridiculous to believe that you'd always need 100 Easterners for one Western Knight. Is there some special diet involved? Drugs, medicine? From the time of the Romans until now it's always the goodies having to fight "superior" numbers. Oh such concidence...

The mameluks had riding skills and you can meet their descendents from Caucasic riders in cirkus shows across Europe -But they never never used FULL PLATE
Neither they could bash as good as North European heriditary feudal elite trained hard from 5 -yeras old
The knights were exclusive warriors and of very small number it is non-sense to compare them with any other heavy rider.For example battle of Teutonic order with Novgorod(lake Pepius) with around 7.000 combatants included 6-8 hundred Russian drughina heavy cavalry and only SIXTY KNIGHT-BROTHERS .WHILE TURKIC SEMI-NOMADS(SOURCE OF MAMELUKS) OF SOUTHERN RUSSIA DID MIGRATED IN STEPPES TILL 18TH CENTURY IN MILLION NUMBERS their last fit was a great raid on Muskovy in 17th century were they took halv-million people to slavery.
With only 200 counties in Western Europe how many knights could be there ?OK counties are splited on baronies ,but it is still pitifull short number of counts and barons
And you man shall see division between riding or armour or fighting
in order to be count for a serious poster and not some over-excited patriot of his own ideas

PS Saladin with 50 mameluks was meeting Richard accompanied with 20 knights that is a historic proportion
Then you intentionaly twist the legend that one knight could fight against one hundred of rebelous European peasants to new-your own legend were European changed with Eastern peasants

[Kyias]

kyias, no, that's not true. I swear to god, i know much much about the mongols, i read Genghis biography and all about their history, and films about them too. No, because they have superior cavalry and they are fearless warriors, all soldiers are willilng to die for Genghis causes, and for the fun of taking women from cities and exterminate populations... And no, it's not possible to take out half an army with cavalry in 3.2... besides, in this, the cavalry charges straight into the formation, which causes them harder to get out of it, so in some cases, if your stuck in middle of pikemen, your dead.
wow, if you all just gonna use opinions, fine, but don't even try to say RC is better than darth mod, because it is not. You guys have nothing to prove that

It's all preference bro...don't get upset about things.

RC has its appeal for me just like Darth has appeal for you.

For the record, yes I can kill off half an army with 5 units of cav while my infantry hold the lines..I didn't say they were charging head long into EVERY formation..some were decoys while others flanked. It is very possible.

[ProneStar!]

the eastern heavy cav have really high armor for some reason. Is it just me or does anyone else wish that egypt had some decent foot soldiers, besides a few spears and militia?