REM (Rapid Eye Movement) the key to the evolution of intelligence?

[Roman Rapper]

Untill recently it was held by the scientific community that the only animals on this planet who engaged in REM whilst asleep were Humans. This has now been proved false. We now know that some of the more intelligent primates do it as well.
As we all know, REM during sleep is a sign of the subject falling into a deeper sleep, where the subconscious comes to the surface. There is a theory which states that the only time an animal's mind will allow this to happen is when said animal is very sure that no predators are going to come along and attack it while it is asleep. 40-50 thousand years ago homosapiens began to enter REM while asleep.
Whilst in this state the mind is at it's most dynamic and, over time, intelligence develops.
The theory follows that this is also the case for some of the primates, who have also in some cases reached the top of their food chain and have been able to sleep soundly enough to enter REM sleep. Hence many of them are extremely intelligent (many use tools and show early signs of having individual culture).

I believe it. It makes a lot of sense.

[Gary88]

wow thats interesting do you have an article?

[Chaigidel]

that does make sense on a "gut" level but I would also love to read some articles :o

I also liked that idea bout the worms being responsible for our "daring"

[Roman Rapper]

I'm sorry I don't have links to any internet sources for this theory, I found out about it in a documentary.

although I'm sure that if your willing to put in a little effort you could find out something about it on the internet.

[Chaigidel]

the internets the keys to all knowledge !

[Ummon]

It's a complicated matter. I personally think this is a misinterpretation by excess though.

Besides, I am under the impression that most mammals have REM sleep. REM is involved with cortical functions, surely.

[TheKwas]

Judging purely from the first post, this theory reeks of Lamarkist misunderstanding of evolution.

[felicissimus]

What ? If such theory exists,it must be awarded as the dumbest of all times !!!
I Consciousness-state of Intelligence
II Unconsciousness-lack of intelligence

See the difference ?! Intelligence cannot possibly appear from the lack of it .

[Garbarsardar]

Untill recently it was held by the scientific community that the only animals on this planet who engaged in REM whilst asleep were Humans. This has now been proved false. We now know that some of the more intelligent primates do it as well.

By recently, you surely mean 1962. We know since then that all mammals with the exception of dolphins have REM.

As we all know, REM during sleep is a sign of the subject falling into a deeper sleep, where the subconscious comes to the surface. There is a theory which states that the only time an animal's mind will allow this to happen is when said animal is very sure that no predators are going to come along and attack it while it is asleep. 40-50 thousand years ago homosapiens began to enter REM while asleep.

REM is not a sign, it is is a sleep stage. The characterisation of it as deeper is far from scientific. Deep sleep is considered to happen in stages 3 and 4, not REM.

As for the subconscious or any other imaginary concept coming to the surface (of what, I wonder) that is far from any relevant data.

Whilst in this state the mind is at it's most dynamic and, over time, intelligence develops.

Dynamic by what criterion? Intelligence develops? Rubbish. Bring us one single study that somehow connects REM to intelligence. Even the proposed relation between REM and memory has not yet been substantiated.

The theory follows that this is also the case for some of the primates, who have also in some cases reached the top of their food chain and have been able to sleep soundly enough to enter REM sleep. Hence many of them are extremely intelligent (many use tools and show early signs of having individual culture).

Nonsense. All primates have REM.

I believe it. It makes a lot of sense.

No, it does absolutely not.

[Ummon]

As for the subconscious or any other imaginary concept coming to the surface (of what, I wonder) that is far from any relevant data.

I cannot speak, but in perhaps ten years, maybe a not better specified community of scientists will look behind and call itself dumb for not seing the obvious. Maybe.

Dynamic by what criterion? Intelligence develops? Rubbish. Bring us one single study that somehow connects REM to intelligence. Even the proposed relation between REM and memory has not yet been substantiated.

To anyone (semi-professionally) interested to quasi-recent developements in these fields, there's one book (collection of articles) I suggest to read:

Sleep and Dreaming, by Pace-Schott, Solms, Blagrove and Harnad.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

odly enough im listeing to REM right now.

Anyway, this sounds interesting and plausible

[TheKwas]

Lamarckism or Lamarckian evolution refers to the once widely accepted idea that an organism can pass on characteristics that it acquired during its lifetime to its offspring (also known as based on heritability of acquired characteristics or "soft inheritance"). It is named for the French biologist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, who incorporated the action of soft inheritance into his evolutionary theories and is often incorrectly cited as the founder of soft inheritance.

It proposed that individual efforts during the lifetime of the organisms were the main mechanism driving species to adaptation, as they supposedly would acquire adaptative changes and pass them on to offspring. After publication of Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection, the importance of individual efforts in the generation of adaptation was considerably diminished. Later, Mendelian genetics supplanted the notion of inheritance of acquired traits, eventually leading to the development of the modern evolutionary synthesis, and the general abandonment of the Lamarckian theory of evolution in biology. In a wider context, soft inheritance is of use when examining the evolution of cultures and ideas, and is related to the theory of Memetics.

While enormously popular during the early 19th century as an explanation for the complexity observed in living systems, the relevance of soft inheritance within the scientific community dwindled following the theories of August Weismann and the formation of the modern evolutionary synthesis

[rathelios]

What happens when we sleep?
Something like this taken from New Scientist 18th February 2006).
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...ur-living.html


REM is a relatively brief period close to wakefulness. It recurs approximately every 90 minutes throughout the night.
Quiet sleep, 1 to 4 above, is associated with a relaxed body and a brain on idle. REM is associated with rapid eye movements and muscular twitches, a paralysed body, a highly activated brain and dreaming. Dreams are not exclusive to REM but it seems to provide optimal conditions.

Why did REM evolve?
Like maths and music are to cognition so dreams are to REM. Dreams are most likely a happy side effect of the evolution of REM.
REM occurs the most in our lives just before and soon after birth. When the brain is growing its vast networks of neural circuitry. It seems likely it is involved in laying down neural development. The proportion of REM drops off through childhood but does not disappear entirely in adulthood so it must serve additional functions. One proposal is that REM helps to consolidate new learning. The proportion of REM increases towards morning so it has also been proposed that REM 'reboots' the brain for wakefulness.
Animals do experience REM. It has been suggested this is why we do not remember most of our dreams. If an animal remembered its dreams it would have no way to tell the dreams from reality and this could cause potentially fatal confusion. Therefore before speech there must have been selective pressure on our evolutionary ancestors not to remember their dreams.
Primary Source: Stephen LaBerge
http://www.lucidity.com

[Simetrical]

Untill recently it was held by the scientific community that the only animals on this planet who engaged in REM whilst asleep were Humans. This has now been proved false. We now know that some of the more intelligent primates do it as well.

Wikipedia says all mammals and birds have rapid eye movement in their sleep, to varying degrees.

As we all know, REM during sleep is a sign of the subject falling into a deeper sleep, where the subconscious comes to the surface.

REM sleep is the "lightest" phase of sleep, not the deepest.

I'm sorry I don't have links to any internet sources for this theory, I found out about it in a documentary.

I suspect you misunderstood much of it.

[Roman Rapper]

REM sleep is the "lightest" phase of sleep, not the deepest.

.

So, according to you, the state of sleep the subject enters during REM is lighter than the sleep the subject enters immediately upon falling asleep.

I suggest you stick to pontificating about computers.

[Cluny the Scourge]

So, according to you, the state of sleep the subject enters during REM is lighter than the sleep the subject enters immediately upon falling asleep.

I suggest you stick to pontificating about computers.

You're wrong - swallow your hate-filled bile and live with it.

[Mathias]

So, according to you, the state of sleep the subject enters during REM is lighter than the sleep the subject enters immediately upon falling asleep.

I suggest you stick to pontificating about computers.

Not knowing **** about sleep myself (and I at least admit it) I refer you to the picture previously posted:

[Simetrical]

So, according to you, the state of sleep the subject enters during REM is lighter than the sleep the subject enters immediately upon falling asleep.

No, it's equally light. Look at the diagram. REM is immediately beneath "Awake", and above all other sleep stages. My recollection from my introductory psychology course is that people are generally easier to wake up from REM sleep and are more alert upon being woken, to the point that some people have tried to sell gadgets intended to wake you up during REM sleep. Unfortunately, my psychology textbook is a couple thousand miles away and so not very handy for quoting, and Google is somewhat unhelpful.

[Cluny the Scourge]

My dog does RHM (Rapid Hindleg Movement) when he's deeply asleep. He thinks he's chasing cats. He also makes little wuff noises of anger.

[DisgruntledGoat]

My dog does RHM (Rapid Hindleg Movement) when he's deeply asleep. He thinks he's chasing cats. He also makes little wuff noises of anger.

How do you know its cats? What it is something like a steak with legs or maybe he's running away... FROM YOU!