Israel vs palestine another one to save other threads :O

[Rush Limbaugh]

Where they lived and hence what you call them is irrelevant.

Unless of course they are Muslims.

he creation of Israel is another example of a Western mess, not a solution.

The west created many other states in the ME but for some reason you have no problem with these. Maybe thats because these states are likewise Muslim.

The state of Israel was created due to some centuries and millenia old Jewish claim to sovereignty, combined to the events during the Holocaust, and Christianised Western short sighted sympathy.

Combined with the fact that Israel was a bare and impoverished region until they returned.

By the very precedent of the creation of the State of Israel, the Palestinian right to return to their old homes is validated. A non existent state was created from a mass of dispersed and fragmented individuals, and placed where those people claimed was once the homes of their ancestors.

You call Israel a non existent state and then have the audacity to claim the in some way Palestine is a legitimate state . If your going by whos ancestors it belonged to first then clearly it belongs to the Jews.

Some of those families will have lived there for thousands of years. Some of those families probably only arrived in that area in the recent past. It is the expulsion of people from a geographic location, not the replacement of a fallacious state with a rightful one.

Very few and some of those if not most still live there.

Now this is propaganda

Palestinian people today is one of the terms referring mainly to Arab people with family origins in Palestine.
A "Palestinian" can mean a person who is born in the geographical area known prior to 1918 as "Palestine"
Britain used the term "Palestinian" to refer to all persons legally residing in or born in the boundaries of the Palestine without regard to their ethnicity, religion, or place of origin.

[Ma'ahes]

Personally I find that the Palestinian leadership, for the longest time, has been either too short-sighted and utilize violence to achieve short-term goals but throw out long-term ones, or has been obsessed with using violence to achieve some sort of goal but the goal is not fleshed out. Case in point: Arafat never planned on giving up violence....to him, it was a part of his diplomatic package. Finally, to many Palestinians, it seemed perfectly acceptable to use violence during diplomatic talks....make peace and violence at the same time, as was used in Vietnam and Algeria.

However, it is foolish to completely compare situations in Algeria and Vietnam to Israel, as Israel as a state is not a colony, unlike the aforementioned areas. Now, S Africa is more of an example, but not in the sense of apartheid--instead, in the sense of the combination of variables that brought the two sides to the diplomatic table. The first Intifada was a resounding success, but now you have a situation where the Israelis have both found successful ways of preventing it, and have grown used to suicide bombers.

So, in a sense, the endless chain of events that propels the Right Wing of Israel into power time and time again may, in the end, be the downfall of the terrorists as peace becomes unattainable. Luckily, however, the current regime in Palestine seems to have more control over the populace, and at least looks after its own self-interests, which means catering to the West and peace.

[Lord Of The Knights]

(jews vs arabs = jews) = temporary sentence.
(crusaders vs arabs = crusaders) = temporary sentence.
(any one vs land owners = land owners) = always right at the end.100%
==================================================
(crusaders vs arabs = arabs) at the end . 100%
(jews vs arabs = arabs) at the end . 100%
so land theifs , dont feel happy

[Chaigidel]

perhaps you will discuss the merits of your position ?

many contend that they are not the thieves of land, that the jews legally own the land. That in fact the only criminals are the muslim arabs.

[Lord Of The Knights]

hah , you know , you need to read all history books in your home and them come to tell yr thoughts ,palestine is an arabian land , this is a known fact ,you cant talk about that , ask your grand father!!

[Chaigidel]

yes I have studied history and this is why I have my conclusions

palestine does not exist before 1917--- palestine was a name chosen by the muslim arabs so that they could claim jerusalem( derived from the old roman name but these are not the old roman arabs) the ottoman empire when making census never once refered to the region as palestine, never once.

[Eranshahr]

Palestine was a name back to before the Achaemid Persian empire, Palestine was according to Cyrus when he wrote the religious rights in the Cyrus cylinder " The Jews shall be freed from babylonian rule and return to their homeland of PALESTINE"

The anem Palestine was used by many before palestinian arabs. The thing is, Jews where massacred and fled from the lands when crusaders and arab caliphate came, But muslims stayed there.

htere is nothing you can change now, Jews should have that piece of aldn but next to it there should be a Palestinian nation too.

[Lord Of The Knights]

what you mean 1917 ? ,1917 bc?
look lets end this point ok ,we are agreed that the first one owns the land is the owner right?
you are good in history right? ok , can you tell me who is the first owner of palestine ?

note : am not talking about the names
palestine,israel,judea..... this is not the problem ,we are talking about the land

[Chaigidel]

No actually my point is that whoever wins the fight owns the land-- that is the rule of war.

and to answer your first question it was probably some form of early sealife--- or maybe bacteria or nematodes.

[Lord Of The Knights]

(No actually my point is that whoever wins the fight owns the land -------that is the rule of war.)-Chaigidel
hah , this is a foolish thought ,you mean if i fought you and took your house, then its my house ?

what was the first time jews owned palestine land?

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

Israel vs Iran- Bye bye Isarel- although it will never happen. And I agree with Mirage, when you feel pressed you call others racist. I hope you will change this time if you want a polite debate with NO personal insults.

Israel has nukes and a way better army, Iran would get their asses handed to them quite quickly.

[Chaigidel]

well its the same reasoning which allows america, europe, the ME and the asian country to all exist -- -because not one of those borders was free from being decided by war.

the jews owned the land first around 1000 bc when they took it from the canaanites --I guess but im not sure about those numbers otherwise the first time was in 1948 ? after years of abuse at the hands of arab muslim pogroms they finally got some land to defend, then they took the rest because the arabs got all crazy.

[Eranshahr]

haha have the Israeli army ever proved itself against the Iranian?
Or have the modern iranian army ever been seen in battle?
Both answers are no. So you never know if Iran wins or loses.

The advantage Iran has is that israel is a small country meaning it is very easy to blast away.
Iran is ruled by idiots which makes them even more dangerous at war.
Israel although is ruled by Idiots with hearts, THE RULERS!!
Israel would reconsider even trying to destroy one single city of Iran and it would certainly not use a nuke.

If starting with Israel never lost a war well Iran haven't lost one single war since their last war with Russia. WAY before Israel was created.
Israel in fact has lost a war against Hezbollah, in fact two wars.

Still nobody should supprot a war between Iran or Israel and the chances a war will break put are 0.1%. Alliance between two countries opposing Saudi arabia are always strong.

[Lord Of The Knights]

Israel has nukes and a way better army, Iran would get their asses handed to them quite quickly.

oh man israel is to smal in the map one nuke and israel bye bye
and iran is not alone , we are all with iran,the major battle is too close now,
you cant defeat muslims , no one can ,i think hizb allah will be in jerusalem after 2 hours since the war begins , so bad to you israelis , the time has come to give us our lands and go to germany like a slaves again

to Chaigidel : we lived in palestine since 8000 years ago

[Chaigidel]

It will be just fricken great yeah if everyone just throws their hands in the air and says **** it lets destroy the goddamn world I WAS TIRED OF LIVING ANYWAY.

war is not an option, have no illusions if total war was engaged there would be very few left standing and I doubt a muslim would be among them considering the amount of non muslim country with nukes as opposed to the muslim countries with nukes. but nobody wants that. the arabs simply need to give up and leave because they will never win Israel back.

[Eranshahr]

if Iran is going to represented as the " Muslim" here and Israel as the " Jew" I hope both nations are destroyed.

Iran is IRANIAN and Israel ISRAELI. And there are not going to be war between the two, never. there are so many secret backstage politics going on for now that Bush would be suprised if he knew how good allies Iran and Israel were. building a joint missile decided 1981 ( 2 years after the Islamic revolution) all the money Israel owes Iran and all those American weapons mysteriously coming to Iran?

[Chaigidel]

that would be great if Iran and Israel were allies seriously I hope its true.

[Lord Of The Knights]

look ,there is a famous rule you need to know :black people cant live in the holyland (palestine) more than 100 years (i hope the idea is clear) never mind , tell me why you are escaping from my question ?
who owned palestine land at the first time ? i know ,the arabs (cannanites) before 10000 years ago (8000 bc) so , you dont have anything to break my words ,or what?

note : you are a black people
ps-the most impossible thing is an alliance between iran and israel
ps-can you tell me exactly where do you live in israel?which city?

[Chaigidel]

I dont live in Israel and I bet you dont live there either :O

canaanites were arabs eh? interesting I thought the jews wiped out the canaanites.-- arabs just attach their name to any old name that suits them , none of it is true.

[Eranshahr]

haha not so impossible as you think.

jsut wait when the Iranian regime falls and all secrets are exposed. Jsut like when teh shah fell and it was exposed that he wanted CIA to overthrow MOssadeq.

think of it.

Saudi arabia, Egyt, Jordan, Saddam's Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, kuwait, UAE and Bahrain all wants Iran and Israel destroyed.
The only chance for either to suvive is an alliance, during some arab-israeli wars, 1948 ex. Iran even invaded iraq and set the iraqi army and politicians at a scare ant Israel could easily defeat them and leave them with one nemy less.

When iraq attacked Iran 1980, one year later 1981 Israel bombed Iraq. Not only Osirak, they bomed some military installations too.

Israel has loaned money from iran during history, Israel owed much money to Iran.
Iran has the 2nd largest Jewish population and is still allowing people to convert to Judaisma nd build synagogs, Israel has currently 50 000 Iranians living there, bringing them closer to each other culturarely too.

Arabs themselves said " my enemy's enemy is my friend"
Why canät Israel and Iran use this against the arabs?