materialism Vs anti materialism

[Amorphos]

materialism Vs anti materialism

what is best for the world? here’s some of my general thoughts on the matter...

can materialism last - will people always want it and isn’t there a certain level at which it becomes obscene [in the face of world poverty etc.]?

my personal view is that of ‘everything in moderation’, i also strongly believe that wealth should be relative i.e. why should a footballer get so much more than a furniture maker or skilled artisan of given type?

in ancient rome [as far as i know - and i don’t know much] people with great wealth built great public buildings, now they just buy themselves property abroad and yachts etc. if we cannot limit peoples wages, should they be encouraged to give more back to the people they take from?

the wealthy west gets more for the same jobs as others not so wealthy - why? the world would be a lot fairer is money was based on barterable values? so is moey plastic these days, i mean some jobs seam to have little worth in the real world yet are better paid than the most fundamental jobs like farming etc.

why should the west live of the backs of poorer countries; does it though?

[Serious Spamurai]

People say materialism causes greed and envy, but there will always be people who have something you don't, like good looks when you're **** ugly. Of course, it's still bad, you see people who have monumental amounts of money, but don't share it, the products of capitalism my friend, the products of capitalism.

[Amorphos]

hi ss

People say materialism causes greed and envy

sure, we could say that greed and envy are the problem though?

but there will always be people who have something you don’t, like good looks when you’re **** ugly.

hah yes of course, personally i think its the extremes where lies the problems, some people just have too much - not just money but to greater share of recourses both man and material.

perhaps there should be limits?
maybe yachts shouldnt even be built - or perhaps only for rental use [holidays and parties etc]?

[harm]

Are all men created equal?" That was incorporated into the opening of the American Declaration of Independence by Thomas Jefferson . It is a great value for a country to live by and strive for. If I asked you, are all men created equal? You would simply reply. No. Obviously not. Because we are obviously not created equal. If I asked you Would you like to live in a world that is not created equal? You would obviously say NO also. Because of the terrible injustice that would ensue because groups of people would be declared "the chosen ones" of some kind or other. It is the striving for equality and the coming together of mankind through understanding and reason that manifests equality, it doesn't just simply exist, you need to want it to. In this case a rich man should love a poor man and a poor man shall love a rich man.

When money is disproportionately distributed to a group of people via the same economical system that the very same people have set up. I see three things happening. 1. Lack of empathy for the less fortunate, justified by declaring they choose to be poor. 2. The poor were born to be poor deemed by god or brain chemistry. 3. Lack of education and opportunity.

I think they're all true in various degrees... There are naturally greedy people that are born and it is wrong to demand anti-materialism on them. Therefor the only option is to demand the option to choose between the two. To be or not to be.....That is the question.

The poorest man in a country should always have the same power in government as the richest. Library's are free so anyone can educate themselves enough to go cast their vote.

[harm]

People say materialism causes greed and envy, but there will always be people who have something you don't, like good looks when you're **** ugly.

Beauty is subjective. There are only material goods. We're all naked.

[Amorphos]

yeah i agree with street samurai too, i think re-localisation and minimalisation is the best way forwards. minimal resource use and far less population - you cannot really have one without the other.

[STReetSamurai]

Materialism and industrialization is going to cause the end of the world, people got along fine 3000 years ago without electricity, cars, any and all matter of technology.

We learn all this **** we don't need to know and find out our planet is going through all of trouble with our ozone layers collapsing and global warming and how we're all going to die, we have bombs capable of destroying ourselves thousands of times over. All of this is because of industrialization and modernization, which also brought materialism to a whole new level. (Ipods Ihome, I phone, Itoilet and ect ect bs)

It all just makes me sick when I think about it.

[Chaigidel]

I gotta agree with the Street samurai, I do not like this age of materialism.

[Chaigidel]

well if implemented properly we wouldnt even notice-- things would just be better for the next generation.--

[Amorphos]

absolutely chia, i am not in favour of revolutions, in fact it is the long term good over the short term good that forms the basis of my belief system here. there are no quick solutions, things should be built to last on every level.

we only borrow the earth from our descendants!

[Count of Montesano]

The problem with today's materialism - and don't get me wrong I own a car, a house, and plenty of knick-nacks and gadgets - is the industrialized countries simply waste a great deal of resources. I was listening to NPR the other day do an interview in rural India, and one starving farmer said he'd be happy to be reincarnated as an American cow, since American livestock often has more to eat than many third world people. I won't even go into the extreme waste of energy the American single-driver, SUV, 100-mile commute home to the McMansion culture is causing.

I'm not a doom-and-gloom believer that says we need to return to hunting gathering to be sustainable. But the human race does need to do things a lot more efficiently if we expect the planet to support 2-3 billion Chinese and Indians all living the lifestyle of the average Westerner.

[Chaigidel]

I firmly believe that this unhealthy focus on objects drains the very soul of the person who is engaging in the materialism.( if you believe in the soul)

[Amorphos]

count of montesano
i agree entirely, i would like to see no packaging at supermarkets, where you take your own containers etc and all products are in their basic form - where possible. i am hoping that computers will one day arrive at their limits so they arent such a waste, and i think trains should replace cars as much as possible- although that would take a major undertaking to get the railway system back to how it was at its peak.

[Tom Paine]

I firmly believe that this unhealthy focus on objects drains the very soul of the person who is engaging in the materialism.( if you believe in the soul)

Yes, but a lot of people disagree. I disagree on a different basis to them; the soul does not (cannot) exist, and even if it did an interest in material things would not damage it, its an illogical argument requiring a lot of arbitrary rules trying to make us act directly against our natures.

[MasterAdnin]

Salaam bros,

I have been watching this topic closely as materialism is one of the problems in society today. I am anti-materialism due to the fact that materialism brings excess into ones life. A person may not be very materialistic, but once they get something which they very badly desire, it could lead them to wanting more and more.

Imam Ali(pbuh) warned his followers about materialism, saying that it would blind them from the life in the hereafter in two ways. It would lead them to believe that only this world matters and that getting anything a person wants in this world would be able to satisfy their needs and wants, this is far from the truth. Secondly, it would lead to excess, and this would lead to human suffering, a truth which has been discovered by many and is the main principle of Bhuddism.

If one becomes too materialistic, then this would cause them to try to do all that is necessary to get what they want, not what they need. They would forget about ethics and morals and would forget about the hereafter, though that is a religious topic so I will not talk about it too much.

The second point which Imam Ali(pbuh) makes is that it will lead to human suffering, something which we have seen often through the centuries. Human wants always lead to others sufferings, and this is why we must stay away from materialism. Materialism in moderation is okay, but it often leads us to excess which is the principle root of suffering.

Excess leads us to give up our morals and ethics so that we may gain all that we feel is necessary for us to enjoy our lives. This would go as far as murder, illegal drug, and generally unethical actions which would cause us to go astray from both religious law, and secular law. We must guard against these urges for that is what corrupts us today. Materialism leads to corruption, and this is something no one can deny. We all desire money and power, but these are things all people want. The only difference between people is the amount which they can control themselves from such worldly desires.

All of my points are derived from only one of Imam Ali's(pbuh) speeches, which if you wish I can post. There is much more I can say but I choose not to because this is a political topic and not religious, though rest assure, that materialism leads to unethical action. Unethical action leads to corruption, and corruption leads to suffering of others. I hope this explanation is sufficient to represent my beliefs on the subject.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[EDIT]-I apologize for the sloppiness of my response, please focus on my points rather than how I apply them and the examples given.

[Amorphos]

masteradnin

hi and sorry for getting to your post late

interesting read, i think materialism and more generally wants and desires are the source of most sufferings. tyranny cannot take hold if people didn’t want things nor allow for an excess of things, power is built from greed on both the material and spiritual levels. we keep trying for more and in britain this has produced a work ethic of more overtime and often working 6 and 7 day weeks, to those who’s hours are limited they work fast to achieve that little extra.

one may think that it is good that people work hard, but it is not to give their families food to eat it is to buy a BMW or merc etc or to have a bigger TV, all of which is to be better than others around them as this seams to give them a feeling of respect but worse a sense of oneupmanship!

the upshot of it all is that these things wear thin after a while and many people now suffer from terrible stress with marriages breaking up and depression taking hold - is it all worth it? we all seam to be locked into the capitalist machine and feel we have to keep going, but i think people need to work less and play more, forgetting about all their worries.

[rathelios]

Excessive materialism is a symptom of a wider lack of fulfilment. People in the West used to be spiritually fulfilled by religion. As religion recedes from people's lives it is being replaced by other things. Some people have replaced it with an excessive pursuit of worldly possessions, others with new secular religions like 'environmentalism', yet others have descended into nihilism There is nothing wrong with the capitalist system the problem is with the failure of the old religions in the light of modern scientific revelations about reality.

[eventhorizen]

Excessive materialism is a symptom of a wider lack of fulfilment. People in the West used to be spiritually fulfilled by religion. As religion recedes from people's lives it is being replaced by other things. Some people have replaced it with an excessive pursuit of worldly possessions, others with new secular religions like 'environmentalism', yet others have descended into nihilism There is nothing wrong with the capitalist system the problem is with the failure of the old religions in the light of modern scientific revelations about reality.

I cannot agree, as the people that invented religions also laid down laws about helping others, sharing with those who need it, helping those with nothing, all of which goes against capitalism but is used to improve reputation.

[Amorphos]

yes i would agree that religion is the basis of our morality in the main, it runs along side of capitalism giving it an acceptable face. we always have to have a market economy it just need to be based on the long term rather than the short. this is where our philosophy on life needs to change in my opinion. less population means we can keep our effects to a given minimum, one that is necessary for our long term survival, then products need to be engineered for longevity.

[Chaigidel]

our inability to think about consequences past our own lifetimes will be our greatest enemy ( and is all ready) =-- "our" being humanity