The Complete EDU Guide

[Kokito]

OK sorry I have just discover that this other descr_model_battle doesn´t mean anything so one thing less

[MasterOfNone]

I think you need to read some basic tutorials. Unit building is not hard and often where modders start.

The models (.cas files) reference a model - NOT the skeleton of the model. You have removed model_flex lines so of course it will crash. You also need to remove the mounted standard and the wedge ability (and the mount effects line would make it more realistic, though that would not cause any errors to keep it in).

[Kylan271]

OK thanks Aradan. Hmmm,I ask as using TE Mod,Lusted uses a Stat Cost calculation to assign unit costs,and I was deciding on factoring lethality into the equation so as to make more lethal units at higher cost in comparison to weaker weapons(Lusted uses Attack+Defence+Morale(at 10%)xunit men=cost,mainly). It seemed a fair idea,but with missile weapons not factored it is not workable,as data has to be proportional at least.

[Kylan271]

Kokito,you have to ask Swabian why two DMB files? The desc_export_units should refer to one for its skeltons,textures etc,not two,unless he has a work around to avoid the 255(?) DMB limit???

I think the Mod team has been experimenting with unit types,so two types of same unit. If different textures,and you like both,alter. If same,ignore marca gwynedd_2 and only bother with 1st.

DMB

type                marca_gwyneddInf ;(Infantry model) #Add 'Inf' at end to show new model
skeleton            fs_javelinman, fs_swordsman   
 ;skeleton            fs_hc_javelinman, fs_hc_swordsman                                    ( Infantry = skeleton            fs_javelinman, fs_swordsman)  
 indiv_range            40
texture            slave,bi/data/models_unit/textures/ATW_marca_gwynedd.tga
texture            vandals, bi/data/models_unit/textures/ATW_marca_gwynedd.tga
 model_flexi        bi/data/models_unit/ATW_marca_gwynedd.CAS, 15
model_flexi        bi/data/models_unit/ATW_marca_gwynedd.CAS, 30
model_flexi        bi/data/models_unit/ATW_marca_gwynedd.CAS, 40
model_flexi        bi/data/models_unit/ATW_marca_gwynedd.CAS, max
model_sprite        slave, 60.0, bi/data/sprites/slave_marca_gwynedd_sprite.spr
model_sprite        vandals, 60.0, bi/data/sprites/slave_marca_gwynedd_sprite.spr
model_tri            400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

EDU

type             marca gwyneddInf
dictionary       marca_gwyneddInf
category          infantry
;cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          marca_gwyneddInf, 30, 0, 1.5 ;15, 0, 1.5 =Change to Infantry number of men.
;officer          draco_standard_mounted                      =Officer maybe wrong type for Infantry,remove to be safe(I am not sure on this).
;mount            medium horse                                       =Remove as infantry
;mount_effect     elephant -8, camel -4                  =Remove as infantry
attributes       sea_faring,hide_forest,hardy
formation        1.5, 3.5, 6, 6, 4,square  ; ,wedge   =Remove ',wedge' as for infantry now,and no comma at end of 'formation' Alter formation to Infantry types,find a spear unit & see?
stat_health      2, 1
stat_pri         22,3, javelin, 40, 6, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10, 1
stat_pri_attr    prec,thrown,thrown ap, ap
stat_sec         9,12, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, axe, 10, 0.708
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  5, 11, 8, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, -1, -8, 0
stat_mental      8,impetuous,untrained
stat_charge_dist 200
stat_fire_delay  -35000
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        3, 450, 90, 40, 60, 450
ownership        vandals, slave

You have to add 'Inf' at end to create a seperate new unit,I use Inf as easier to remember. The red is add,blue is remove. you also have to alter your export_descr_unit_enums to include the new unit,ie:

EDUE

marca_gwyneddInf
marca_gwyneddInf_descr
marca_gwyneddInf_descr_short

Then in text folder---> export_units to add unit descriptions. It is easier,being lazy to find "marca_gwynedd"(use EDIT--->FIND to help)and copy paste a 2nd one next to each other and rename the second to marca_gwyneddInf etc.

This should do the trick..????

[Aradan]

Re cost calculation: If lethality is used to balance out inherent skeleton inequalities, then you don't need to factor it in. But if it's used to make some units weaker/stronger than others (ala EB, TE, etc) then you will probably need to calculate it to get accurate results. For missile units you need to add a bit to the red equation, sth like this:

Cost = {[MslCombatFactor * (MslAttack + MslRange/10 + Ammo/25) + (Attack + Charge*0,2 + Armour*0,8 + Def*0,4 + Shield*0,6)] * Morale*0,2} * #-of-men

As for mounting/dismounting:
a) check the relevant tutorial
b) check ER's basic tutorial on unit creation
c) use [code] tags, makes reading easier.

Having two DMB files is impossible btw, one should be an older or WIP version.

[Kylan271]

Ok thanks I did not know about the 'quote' function,not used before. As for calculations,mounts and chariots are confusing to me to work out,and then the attributes? Do you give cost for ie warcry,chant,etc????

[Aradan]

Yes, but if you start giving costs to everything, it can get really complicated. Our balance sheet for FATW, that does assign a cost to everything, has a gazillion variables and a cost-calculation formula that made some people bang their heads on the wall.

[Kylan271]

Yes I understand this as I play different games,and see some very complex formuli,which makes the game a tad boring at times. So trying to find a balance. I just ask about attributes as didn't know if anyone had considered a cost factor? CA doesn't...basically Attack+Defence xNo men..=cost,if at that,ie peasants 60 & 300,as examples,and they even use mass as factor,ie
Upkeep=mass+1 xNo men,ie peasants 60=102(100),and 300=510..from what I figure,but nothing seems proportional,ie one cost for one unit another variable for others,so can't find common system in CA RTW1.5 or BI,ALEX etc. I just use [Attack(best-ap is 1.5x)+Charge,+Defence(and mount bonus),+Morale/10(as Lusted uses) X No. men(x health)] divide 2(mounts x1).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What I use is SETTLEMENT levels,which in game are Village/Town/LargeTown/City/LargeCity/HugeCity and derive Attack,Defence and upkeeps etc from which SetLevel the unit is created at. In game only 5 Settlements are shown,but there are six. Upkeep as example is more for Cohorts than Peasants per man,and mounts are double man cost(multiply by stat_health). It helps balance units,so I have Village Militia at 4Attack/2Charge Spear-Village(Lvl1),Hoplites 8/4-LargeTown(TE as 8/3)to Spartan Hoplites 12/6-Large City(In TE as 11/6,so I am close),just using SetLvl+1x2=SpearAttack,and Charge SetLvl+1=Charge,with missile at 1/2. Cavalry Charges are at 9max I see,so SetLevelx2&-1=CavCharge,ie 1/3/5/7/9/11,ie Cataphract=9(5th). It seems to work ^_* .

Main problem that bothers me is Elephants and Chariots and Siege Weapons,as they have area attacks. How to work out a multiple attack unit????

[Aradan]

Main problem that bothers me is Elephants and Chariots and Siege Weapons,as they have area attacks. How to work out a multiple attack unit????

Just experiment and find how many men are killed on average by the area attack each time, then use that as a multiplier to attack?

[Kylan271]

Just experiment and find how many men are killed on average by the area attack each time, then use that as a multiplier to attack?

Tried a few times,very hard as variables are formation spacing mainly. Different results each unit type-using same weapon,ie Catapult..and again depends on ammo type-stone or fire. Mount attacks vary also depends on what speed they attack a unit at,ie charge or defending-and from what side ie rear,shield side or front??? Kills hard to assign as a standard multiplier due to so many variables.



Hmmm,by the way what do fire arrows do damage wise and what of siege weapon fire??? They affect morale,but against units or structures what damage variation??? No listing in EDU about them?

Fire arrows against siege weapons,hmm all this time and I forgot to try????

[Kokito]

Thank you for the help guys! you have been very helpful!, I´ll see what I can do!

[Aradan]

I don't think the damage changes when arrows get flaming.

[Kokito]

Thank you Kylan271 and Aradan of course!!!, It work wonderfully, now I just need to balance things a little bit!, thank you again cheers!

[Kylan271]

OK Kokito no probs,working on your other probs,and yeah thank Aradan also ^_* .

Flaming arrows no extra damage,hmmmm. I know it affects morale,but is that for each volley..for a time limit from first attack...or cumulative or affects entire army or just unit hit??? Aghhhh,pulling my hair out...I have to research this,lol.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Best results I have with archers seems to be alternate fire & normal arrows-fire attacks slow,so second rank use fire to weaken morale and front rank inflict casualties quicker using normal arrows-so loss of troops & fire fear = enemty routs quicker than just using fire or normal. One has to weaken the enemy before they hit your front ranks,so this seems best shot.

[Kokito]

OK Kokito no probs,working on your other probs,and yeah thank Aradan also ^_* [/SPOILER]

Haha, when modding you always get problems but that´s just the way it is certanly! If you want to have fun nothing comes cheap

[Kylan271]

Aradan I stumbled upon CA's docudemons and found:

Formation: (horde, column, square, wedge, square_hollow, testudo, phalanx)
Special_ability: (testudo, phalanx, wedge, drop_engines, flaming_ammo, warcry, chant, curse, beserk, rally, kill_elephants, move_and_shoot, cantabrian_circle, shield_wall, stealth, feigned_rout, schiltrom )

These are allowed types in docudemon_conditions.txt,note some are alien to me...do you have any ideas what they are?????

And discussing area damage before...oh stumbled upon this in BI of all things in descr_projectile_new(in RTW also),ie:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

projectile ballista

effect large_arrow_trail_set
end_effect large_arrow_explode_set
damage 24
damage_to_troops 5
radius 0
mass 3
min_angle -30
max_angle 70
velocity 60
;bounce 0.5 0.6 0.5 0.4
display aimed particle_trail invert_model_z
model data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_high.CAS, 40.0
model data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_med.CAS, 80.0
model data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_low.CAS, max

The damage to troops seems to be the max amount of men that weapon can effect,I missed this before.

[Aradan]

Aradan I stumbled upon CA's docudemons and found:

Formation: (horde, column, square, wedge, square_hollow, testudo, phalanx)
Special_ability: (testudo, phalanx, wedge, drop_engines, flaming_ammo, warcry, chant, curse, beserk, rally, kill_elephants, move_and_shoot, cantabrian_circle, shield_wall, stealth, feigned_rout, schiltrom )

These are allowed types in docudemon_conditions.txt,note some are alien to me...do you have any ideas what they are?????

These seem to be legacy code from the initial development stages, they probably won't work, but no harm in testing them I guess. Gonna test them now, actually.

And discussing area damage before...oh stumbled upon this in BI of al things,ie:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

projectile ballista

effect large_arrow_trail_set
end_effect large_arrow_explode_set
damage 24
damage_to_troops 5
radius 0
mass 3
min_angle -30
max_angle 70
velocity 60
;bounce 0.5 0.6 0.5 0.4
display aimed particle_trail invert_model_z
model data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_high.CAS, 40.0
model data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_med.CAS, 80.0
model data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_low.CAS, max

Siege weapons always had two different damage value,s one for buildings and one for troops, hadn't they?





EDIT: Bah, the engine doesn't even recognise them (it only ignores square_hollow, if assigned as secondary formation).

[Hakomar]

That is a shame. It is always good fun to find out what CA did not implement, it is a kind of surprise. I love your work Aradan by the way, and your involvement with the TWC community.

[Kylan271]

Oopsie,"Siege weapons always had two different damage value,s one for buildings and one for troops, hadn't they?"

Sorry to clarify,I forgot to mention,there is 3 data types-1 building,2 men,3 area effect-units. Only in EDU is the damage to units,Projectiles lists buildings&area,look at arrow damage to see-it is '0' so refers to buildings. The 3rd is what I am refering to,it tells the engine how many units that siege weapon can effect,ie scorpion 2 and ballista 5.

Oh dang,I was hoping some of those legacy code would be useful... Thanks for testing anyway!

[Aradan]

Sorry to clarify,I forgot to mention,there is 3 data types-1 building,2 men,3 area effect-units. Only in EDU is the damage to units,Projectiles lists buildings&area,look at arrow damage to see-it is '0' so refers to buildings. The 3rd is what I am refering to,it tells the engine how many units that siege weapon can effect,ie scorpion 2 and ballista 5.

Hm, so, even if I have my soldiers spaced out 30 metres away from each other, this will affect "5" units/soldiers? Maybe it's just a +bonus to the value defined in the EDU?