(moved to vote) Revival of the Council of War (Consilium Belli)

[Halie Satanus]

Split from the discussion here about the Modder Liason Officer.

I would like to note that the Council has two very prolific modders with very strong links to the community who do work on this sort of thing; to elect a third person, completely separately, to do the same with none of the direct accesses or powers of the first two individuals at present seems an illogical course of action as opposed to, say, petitioning those members (Halie and Publius) with requests to take specific causes or courses of action up.

Awww. Shuks.....

Anyway, Need i remind the Curia that there once was a group who did all of these things and more (and yes Prof was a member) which the Curia in it's divine wisdom decided was a waste of time and pointless.....How many times has the disbandment of the C.O.W. come back to bite the Curia in the proverbial..

Wouldn't it make more sense to bring back the C.O.W. and have the various roles distributed amongst it's members?.. Liaison reports, Unit repository, SVN officer, ect ect...Also the C.O.W. had the right to appoint non-citizens, iirc, or could have.

Just a thought.

[Scorch]

Awww. Shuks.....

Anyway, Need i remind the Curia that there once was a group who did all of these things and more (and yes Prof was a member) which the Curia in it's divine wisdom decided was a waste of time and pointless.....How many times has the disbandment of the C.O.W. come back to bite the Curia in the proverbial..

Wouldn't it make more sense to bring back the C.O.W. and have the various roles distributed amongst it's members?.. Liaison reports, Unit repository, SVN officer, ect ect...Also the C.O.W. had the right to appoint non-citizens, iirc, or could have.

Just a thought.

You know what?

That's a very good idea. I think we should bring it back.

[Halie Satanus]

You know what?

That's a very good idea.

Hmm, well the Cow was to an extent victim of it's own success, both terms did a hell of a lot of work and had idea's popping out all over, but then when things became quiet people started sharpening knives..Overall though it worked pretty well considering it didn't have a specific role 'per se'...With the unit repository the Wiki and possible implementation of SVN, ect ect, it would. I'm drafting a bill anyway and submitting it to Hex, you know what their like..picky picky...

[Muizer]

Did the Curia abolish the COW or was no new council appointed after its term ran out?

[Gaius Baltar]

Did the Curia abolish the COW or was no new council appointed after its term ran out?

The last standing COW and COP were victms of the January onslaught by/against ON. After the dust had settled, no further appointments to the Councils were made by the current administration (after terms expired in late Jan). The process, I believe, involved applications and a vote by Hex.

One of the main problems with Council work was that everything had to proposed to Hex, which, unfortunatley, never acted on many of the ideas that were brought up. Some part of the proposal would have to take that into account, making Council work part of a Curial "Decision", or similar.

[Halie Satanus]

Exact details escape me, but iirc the Curia disbanded the councils. Someone will remember..

[Tom Paine]

The CoW didn't split anything or particularly take power from the Curia - if nothing else, proposals from the CoW could easily be taken through the Curia before implementation; in fact I believe that happened on occasion with its original formulation. The CoW had a wider variety of individuals and points of view than one person could have, and a wider variety of experiences and expertises. I would strongly recommend, personally, that you change the proposal from what it currently stands at - that is, a Modder Leader - to a council of Modders; a committee/council, in this area, tends to be of greater efficiency. Prospective legislation;

Proposal

Article 5 - Additional Provisions

Section 2 - Council of War/Modders' Committee/Consilium Belli

A Committee shall be established for the improvement of the Modders of the site, to work with the Curia and Administration on improving provisions for the modders and to raise awareness of issues and problems modders face that the site could aid in dealing with. It shall also oversee all projects designed to promote or aid the TW section of the site, such as Mod Awards.

A forum shall be set up for this Committee in the TW Modding Community forums, publicly viewable to all but with posting restricted to members of the Council.

The Committee shall consist of the Council, the Wiki Editor, the Modding Registrar, and 8 members of the Curia elected as per Article 2 of Section 2; the 8 elected members may petition the Council to include additional members as it sees fit.

A bimonthly report shall be submitted to the Curia through the person of the Speaker of the House.

This legislation renumbers Article 2 & 3 of Section 5 to 3 & 4.
It also abolishes the Curial Officer positions of Modder Liason Officer, deleting it from Article 5 of Section 3.

(Preferred name is Modders' Committee, reduces confusion since the Hex is technically the Council)

[Roman_Man#3]

The Council of War, maybe Modders Committee, sounds like a good idea. I fully support the idea of a council/committee to organize the Modding/TW community, with the prospect of both non-citizen and citizen members playing a role in it.

[makanyane]

In Ozy's proposal I do not support the idea of getting rid of the Modding Registrar as a separate position, although whoever that is should liaise with whatever committee/s exist and have posting rights there automatically. I actually think that is better kept as a single persons responsibility so all updates go to one place and are less likely to fall through gaps if its not clear who's meant to be updating main info.

Would also rather see non-citizens able to be included in the initial vote for places - if it is actually going to be a voted in committee rather than a hex appointed committee.

[Tom Paine]

On the former concern, you have a good point and that does make life simpler; the Committee at this point stands at 8 elected Committee members, an elected Wiki Editor (yourself, at present) and an elected Modding Registrar (Hader, at present).

On the latter, opening electoral nominations to non-citizens is an interesting prospect but how to practice it is a difficult question to answer (two nomination threads?)... I'm also not sure that there is a benefit, if a) those who want to get involved are highly likely with one or two prominent exceptions to be citizens and b) non-citizens can ask the Committee to petition Hex for their inclusion.

[Publius]

Anyway, Need i remind the Curia that there once was a group who did all of these things and more (and yes Prof was a member) which the Curia in it's divine wisdom decided was a waste of time and pointless.....How many times has the disbandment of the C.O.W. come back to bite the Curia in the proverbial..

Wouldn't it make more sense to bring back the C.O.W. and have the various roles distributed amongst it's members?.. Liaison reports, Unit repository, SVN officer, ect ect...Also the C.O.W. had the right to appoint non-citizens, iirc, or could have.

Just a thought.

It would certainly make sense...

While the Council of Peace had a little more trouble getting off the ground (in large part because I think there were no real concrete projects for them to sink their teeth into), the Council of War had, has, and would have very solid projects to work on - as have been mentioned above. Couple this with the ideas you generate when focused groups like this get together, and you've a very effective, efficient body that can see things done.

Not to mention an already proven track record.

[The Walrus]

I'll support the revival of the CoW

[Halie Satanus]

Firstly sorry drak for the thread hi-jack...

Preamble. Given the opposition to Ozy's bill and the fact that in my mind it would be a good time to revive the council of war, I've come up with this compromise.

Council of War

The administration shall appoint a number of members to the council to facilitate and improve liaisons between the modding community, Curia, Wiki officer and the administration itself. Duties shall also include but not be limited to; overseeing all projects designed to promote the TW sections of TWC to the modding community and the general membership, and when necessary submit reports to the Curia via the speaker of the house.

Permanent membership shall consist of;

All TWC administrators.
The Modding Registrar.
The Wiki officer.
Speaker of the house.

The selection process for non permanent members will be as follows.

Threads will be opened in the "TW and Modding community and Curia forums. Applicants are free to state any information or experience they wish which will then be reviewed by the administration before selection is made.

A forum shall be set up for the council in the TW modding community forums, access will be restricted but discussions will be publicly viewable.

The council will have the option to submit any member of TWC to the administration for consideration as a complimentary member of the council. Any member of TWC may submit themselves to the administration should they wish to contribute in a specific area. The administration reserves the right to remove any member of the council or disband the council at any time.

The council would supersede and thus render the Curia liaison officer position defunct, as such it would replace the CLO. Therefore the below section of the constitution should be removed.

Modder Liaison Officer - Elected to improve communications between the "Total War" forums of TWC and the Curia. The Modder Liaison oversees a thread pinned in the "Total War" and "Modding Community" Forums linked to by closed, pinned threads in the relevant locations. This thread will be for all questions, suggestions and complaints from members on the "Total War" forums. The Officer will post a summary in the Curia of each matter raised in the thread each month. The Officer will also post Curia developments that are relevant to the Total War community within the relevant forums.

[the Black Prince]

that Decision is unconstitutional, it violates Section 2 Article 4 at least once.

Or are you intending that this be an amendment in addition to article 4 - a permanent council? Either way, there's a great lack of curial oversight in that proposal

[Tom Paine]

I really, really dislike the non-elected element. Who can apply to be on the thing? Fine. The ability to petition after elections? Fine. Not making the original members elected? Big mistake, in my mind; how can they represent anyone's views except their own and further how can the modding community be expected to be satisfied with non-elected members? But seriously, I think there is a simple expedient; allow nominations/applications from anyone, and have a Curial election. Or even have elections held elsewhere - shall we say, the TW Modding Community Forums? Any citizen can vote in those, as well as noncitizens...

Other than that and some formatting issues I'll go through in a moment and edit into my post, go for it.

EDIT: Bear in mind that these are purely formative changes to what Halie proposed, not substantive, despite how much it may look like this is not the case (I've fiddled with where certain things are stated within the Bill, for instance)

Council of War

The Council shall appoint a number of members to the Council of War to facilitate and improve relationsliasons between the modding community, the Curia, the Wiki Officer and the Council itself. The duties of the Council of War shall also include, but are not limited to, overseeing all projects designed to promote the TW sections of TWC to the modding community and the general membership. When necessary, reports shall be submitted to the Curia by the Speaker of the House. [liasons is the wrong word in this context, I think; someone liases, groups have relations. The latter change is to make it clear that the reports are not a duty of the Council of War so much as a duty of the Speaker. All instances of administration have been replaced by Council, all instances of council by Council of War; this shall be done throughout the document]

A forum shall be set up within the TW Modding Community publicly viewable and accessible by all, but posting and voting rights will be restricted to members of the Council of War. [Get the facts of the place and what people have membership to out of the way before saying who has membership]

Permanent membership shall consist of;

All TWC administrators.
The Modding Registrar.
The Wiki officer.
Speaker of the house.
All members of the Council, the Wiki Officer, and the Modding Registrar shall have permanent membership of the Council of War. Other members are selected with the following process

The selection process for non permanent members will be as follows.[Stylistic, rather than anything else. More readable, and more simple, too.]

Application threads will be opened in the TW and Modding community forums and the Curia. Applicants are free to state any information or experience they wish; the applications will then be reviewed by the Council, which will select a varying number of members to sit on the Council of War.

A forum shall be set up for the council in the TW modding community forums, access will be restricted but discussions will be publicly viewable.

The Council of War will also have the option to submit any member of TWC to the Council for consideration as a complimentary member of the Council of War. Any member of TWC may submit themselves to the administration should they wish to contribute in a specific area. The Council reserves the right to remove any member of the Council of War or to disband the Council of War at any time.

This Bill also abolishes the Modder Liason Officer, striking the role from Section 3 Article 5

The Bill then looks like this:

Council of War

The Council shall appoint a number of members to the Council of War to facilitate and improve relations between the modding community, the Curia, the Wiki Officer and the Council itself. The duties of the Council of War shall also include, but are not limited to, overseeing all projects designed to promote the TW sections of TWC to the modding community and the general membership. When necessary, reports shall be submitted to the Curia by the Speaker of the House.

A forum shall be set up within the TW Modding Community publicly viewable and accessible by all, but posting and voting rights will be restricted to members of the Council of War.

All members of the Council, the Wiki Officer, and the Modding Registrar shall have permanent membership of the Council of War. Other members are selected with the following process.

Application threads will be opened in the TW and Modding community forums and the Curia. Applicants are free to state any information or experience they wish; the applications will then be reviewed by the Council, which will select a varying number of members to sit on the Council of War.

The Council of War will also have the option to submit any member of TWC to the Council for consideration as a complimentary member of the Council of War. Any member of TWC may submit themselves to the administration should they wish to contribute in a specific area. The Council reserves the right to remove any member of the Council of War or to disband the Council of War at any time.

This Bill also abolishes the Modder Liason Officer, striking the role from Section 3 Article 5

tBP, since this is not a Curial Committee, it violates nothing. The formation is wholly different and the manner of creation is wholly different. Further, since this committee has no power, and is just an advisory body, what precisely could the Curia oversight? The advice?

[makanyane]

I think I liked liaison better than relations - last draft seems to imply me (as Wiki Officer ) and modding community have fallen out and need reconciliation....
...co-ordination maybe as it should be intended some things are done and not just talked about?

When necessary, reports shall be submitted to the Curia by the Speaker of the House.

Actually like that at least while speaker is Ozy

Previous 'curial' committees which if you actually read constitution where same sort of set up as this was proposed - (appointed members which could /did include non-civs) - had a slight flaw with the provision about taking "decisions" to the curia, as to quite where to draw the line between what was "decision" or not, as most things 'decided' particularly for Wiki were things that anyone could go and do anyway. So if me and Perikles agreed something in committee it should theoretically go to curia, but if two people discussed something on MSN they could just go do / post / edit it... leaving it to Speakers judgement at least with a good candidate in place for that might be solution. Everyone being able to view committee anyway is better 'oversight' than what tends to happen otherwise in terms of PM / Msn convos.

got half way through post and realised other people have replied:

i think reports from the Speaker should probably be compulsory.

As above I'd be happy to leave it to Speakers discretion, that is meant to be responsible role after all, and if committee is viewable by everybody I'm not sure why he'd have obligation to summarise every last thing for people quite able to view it anyway, that was the sort of prescriptive thing we tried with the Modders Liaison role that didn't really come off.

Ozy reporting to curia on hex is at least logical as we can't view hex.

_______________

I'd personally strongly favour this idea, as some of you on wrong end of PM's and other discussions might have noticed I've been a bit short of places to fruitfully discuss Wiki development (and yes I'm still a bit miffed no-one in curia ever bothered to reply to my thread about demise of Wiki committee).

_______________

at least people would know whats going on... if anything

again its a viewable forum, I've been told many times if people don't participate, jump through hoops etc, they shouldn't have say... now you're saying curia members should have some sort of veto right even if they can't be bothered to look at committee forum occasionally to see what's being discussed? ---- Speaker brings to curia anything he considers to be a decision needing approval, if he misses something surely its not beyond wit of the meritocratic citizenship who can actually be ****** to read forum to bring up issue here?

[Tom Paine]

Well i could say I'm not in the habit of trying to put square pegs in round holes, but as you then came up with



Either is good for me, though i dislike that it could mean vetoing people, which is why i prefer appointments, well one reason why.

I think whatever we do has the end result of basically vetoing people...

I'll write up a potential format for elections and nominations then, based on the (reformated) version of your Bill I presented earlier.

I think I liked liaison better than relations - last draft seems to imply me (as Wiki Officer ) and modding community have fallen out and need reconciliation....
...co-ordination maybe as it should be intended some things are done and not just talked about?

Yeah, okay. Liason just... well, its not what the Consilium is there to do, really, and I had a mental block otherwise I probably would have used your suggested word: Perfect!

Actually like that at least while speaker is Ozy

Awww, thanks.

Anyway. As necessary remains, because a) unlike Hex its viewable (and note, there's no fixed schedule for my reports on Hex, or even a Constitutional statement that they should exist) and b) I do not want to be put into the position of summarising ongoing discussion when you can see it already, or stating that "The Consilium de Bellum discussed sod all this month."....


Version god-knows, based on Ozymandian cleanup of Halie's bill, includes elections:

Consilium de Belli

A number of members shall be elected to the Consilium Belli to facilitate and improve relations between the modding community, the Curia, the Wiki Officer and the Council itself. The duties of the Consilium Belli shall also include, but are not limited to, overseeing all projects designed to promote the TW sections of TWC to the modding community and the general membership. When necessary, reports shall be submitted to the Curia by the Speaker of the House.

A forum shall be set up within the TW Modding Community publicly viewable and accessible by all, but posting and voting rights will be restricted to members of the Consilium.

All members of the Council, the Wiki Officer, and the Modding Registrar shall have permanent membership of the Consilium. Other members are selected with either of the following processes.

Application threads will be opened in the TW and Modding community forums and the Curia. Applicants are free to state any information or experience they wish; the applications will then be reviewed by the Council, which will select a varying number of members at least 50% larger than they wish elected and submit these for election, the vote thread to be placed in the TW Modding Community forum, with announcements in the Curia and the TW and Modding community forums.

The Consilium will also have the option to submit any member of TWC to the Council for consideration as a complimentary member of the Council of War. Any member of TWC may submit themselves to the administration should they wish to contribute in a specific area. The Council reserves the right to remove any member of the Consilium or to disband the Consilium at any time.

This Bill also abolishes the Modder Liason Officer, striking the role from Section 3 Article 5

Supporters: Patricians: makanyane (post 26); Halie Satanus (post 27); Perikles (post 33)
Supporters: Citizens: SirPaladin (post 66)
(The name is a pretty direct translation to Latin of Council of War)
Elections are, in this version, open to all applicants and held in the TW Modding Community forums. Any full member (50+ posts, more than a week) may vote.

Originally proposed 9:45 AM GMT, 20th July 2007 CE

[makanyane]

I support Ozy's revised version in post #56, seems like a reasonable compromise between appointments and elections.

[happyho]

Elections are, in this version, open to all applicants and held in the TW Modding Community forums. Any full member (50+ posts, more than a week) may vote.

Originally proposed 9:45 AM GMT, 20th July 2007 CE

I support this proposal.

[Halie Satanus]

Not making the original members elected? Big mistake, in my mind; how can they represent anyone's views except their own and further how can the modding community be expected to be satisfied with non-elected members?

Well i could say I'm not in the habit of trying to put square pegs in round holes, but as you then came up with

But seriously, I think there is a simple expedient; allow nominations/applications from anyone, and have a Curial election.

Or even have elections held elsewhere - shall we say, the TW Modding Community Forums? Any citizen can vote in those, as well as noncitizens...

Either is good for me, though i dislike that it could mean vetoing people, which is why i prefer appointments, well one reason why.

Oh, and I'm fine with your clean up, cheers..