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  1. #1
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Man and God

    With a thread title like this, there are so many different issues that I could discuss. I could talk about the flawed trend of talking about God's nature in human terms, for example. But what I actually want to do is give a little comment about a chapter in the Book of Matthew that I read today, completely by chance (chapter 5, to be precise). In fact, it should bring us to a much deeper paradigm of man's route to salvation offered by God in Christian theology.

    One last thing before we get going - you might like to read the conclusion before you read the detail of the argument. Even if you're an atheist, I think there might be something in this for you too.

    What does it say?

    This chapter opens with what is, in my view, one of the most moving sections of the whole Bible (3-10):

    Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
    Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
    Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
    Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
    Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called sons of God.
    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


    Frequently Christ speaks in subtle parables, but this passage is striking for its directness. Now here I must confess that some Protestants, though probably not Catholics, will find this argument of mine to be blunt. But what is it that we notice about all of these statements? They all relate to experience and actions that characterise a person's entire life. What it does not say is, "Blessed are those who sign on the dotted line, for they will get off scott-free."

    The chapter ends thus (43-48):

    You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his Sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Is that not the most astonishing command from Christ? "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

    How are we to take this?

    Like I say, I actually don't want this to be an attempt to bash Evangelicalism, but I'm afraid that it will be a necessary, ahem, evil. The first reaction on most people's behalf is probably something like, "But how am I supposed to be perfect? Isn't that asking a bit too much?" Of course, some people have noticed this, and have explained that God Himself will gradually make us perfect, so don't worry, just sit back and let God do the work.

    Well to me and to the Orthodox (and I suspect Roman Catholic) Church, that's just lazy Christianity. St Paul would seem to have agreed when he said (Philippians 3:12-14),

    Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected: but I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    "I press forward..." Now what an Evangelical might (and has in the past) say is that this places too much emphasis on man saving himself, and cuts out God completely. Not at all! We shouldn't get side-tracked on this too much, but I shall point out that it is entirely by God's Grace that man is saved. However, man has free will, and God will not force man to accept this Grace. In short, the answer to, "What must man do to be saved?" is simple: accept God's Grace. It is by God's Grace that we may be "perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect".

    But how do we reconcile this with Paul's statement that he may believe in Christ, but has not yet attained perfection? How do we reconcile this with the fact that, as we see today, many people who believe in the Christian God (including myself) are less than perfect?

    How am I supposed to be perfect?

    The teachings of Christ and His Apostles make clear that salvation is not instantaneous. See for example Mark 13:13 in which Christ says,

    All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    First of all, we must ask, "What is perfection?" That answer has already been given. Go back to the beginning of this post and re-read the Beatitudes. Each human attribute has it's divine counterpart - our hungering and thirsting after righteousness results in God's satisfying our desire for righteousness, our mourning results in comfort, our mercy will result in God's mercy, and so on. It suggests then that, as we attain all of these points - poverty of spirit, mercy, desire for righteousness, and so on - we are aiming towards the summation of all of these, that is to the say perfection granted by acceptance of God's Grace.

    The conclusion, in short

    Acceptance of God's Grace is not an intellectual concept, it is a solid action. More accurately, it is a series of solid actions lasting our whole lives.

    What I am saying more specfically is that a person is not perfect until they have fully accepted God's Grace, and a person has not fully accepted God's Grace if they do not act accordingly.

    In fact, what I am saying is that 'acceptance' consists of both thinking and doing.

    More generally (and this is where it is relevant to non-Christians), I am saying that becoming a 'good' person is not effected just by a conscious decision, but by positive action. Good works breed more good works, and life is a ladder up which we must progress. It is in the nature of free choice that a choice is not really a choice unless it is borne out in deed as well as word.

    God offers us the ladder with perfection and (as we Orthodox say) theiosis* at the top - it is our task to climb it.

    * Partaking in the Divine Energies, i.e. communion with God)

    P.S.

    I have deliberately left this post shortened and un-fleshed out in the hope of provoking some kind of discussion or controversy.
    Last edited by Zenith Darksea; July 19, 2007 at 07:08 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Man and God

    I greatly enjoyed this post, but I think we must be using different translations of the Bible......


    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    This chapter opens with what is, in my view, one of the most moving sections of the whole Bible (3-10):

    Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, cause those who have evil spirits are most deserving of what Heaven really is,
    Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted by those they love and the natural world, god, however, is too busy to even drop an email,
    Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth when it is finally uninhabitable and no one else wants it,
    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled with fear of difference/change/progress and a sense of moral superiority that perverts the very core of their religion,
    Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy on rare, random occasions, mostly they will be walked all over though and have their trust abused,
    Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God, and in their naivete believe they actually saw God,
    Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called sons of God and will likely met the common fate of such sons,
    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, and they will be the only non Christians there.....
    Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. And they will, because I am just an older and longer perverted alternate version of what will one day be known as Scientology. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you, though how much you persecute others in life will determine the hierarchy, fair warning


    The chapter ends thus (43-48):

    You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven, except of course for homosexuals and anyone else different from you. He causes his Sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, because frankly, He thinks of you all the same, though some in their self delusion of their chosenness, do amuse Him more. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. IE - Be Human and avoid the clap.

  3. #3
    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: Man and God

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    I greatly enjoyed this post, but I think we must be using different translations of the Bible......
    I beg to differ Enoch,here are the exact translations I derived from Aramic to modern English :


    Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for their weakness is the fountain of Lord's infinite ego
    Blessed are those who mourn,
    for Christ smiles when their cries of agony sing music to His ears
    Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit what is left of the coroted earth.
    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be loyal and unquestioning eternal servants
    Blessed are the merciful,
    for my vengeance upon the ruthless is not as sweet as theirs
    Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will not see God can not be seen ever.
    Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will succumb to the tyranny of evil men which Lord secretly favours
    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is a world of illusions which eclipses Lord's reality of Gehenna
    Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of my ignorance thou savest me from troubles. Despair and be doomed, because there is no reward in heaven,thou hast been deceived for a greater plan the same way We had deceived the ones who were before you.

    That's the exact version,yours is Enoch; perphaps a more recent one...
    Shine on you crazy diamond...

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Man and God

    There is of course, the lost verse,

    Blessed are the Blasphemers, who walk the path of Jesus, and do what he did, to the same types he did it to.

    AMEN

  5. #5

    Default Re: Man and God

    I could not agree with you more. It also fits in with the evangelical concept that one attains salvation through faith alone, a completely flawed concept.
    The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be used until they try and take it away.
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    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: Man and God

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    There is of course, the lost verse,

    Blessed are the Blasphemers, who walk the path of Jesus, and do what he did, to the same types he did it to.

    AMEN
    Oh how could I forgot that one ? Thanks for reminding me Enoch...
    Shine on you crazy diamond...

  7. #7
    IamthePope's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Man and God

    Frequently Christ speaks in subtle parables, but this passage is striking for its directness. Now here I must confess that some Protestants, though probably not Catholics, will find this argument of mine to be blunt. But what is it that we notice about all of these statements? They all relate to experience and actions that characterise a person's entire life. What it does not say is, "Blessed are those who sign on the dotted line, for they will get off scott-free."
    Is this a reference to 'papal indulgences' or the protestant idea heresy of Sola Fide (faith alone)?

    "Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the time of a man, except that it should be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior age?" -Marcus Tullius Cicero

  8. #8
    mongoose's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Man and God

    I think we can all agree that the verse from the opening post was definitely one of the better verses of the Bible.

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    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: Man and God

    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose View Post
    I think we can all agree that the verse from the opening post was definitely one of the best verses of the Bible.
    Unfortunately they are not original verses,totally mistranslated see the actual versions in the second and third posts of Enoch and mine please for the real versions of the verses...
    Shine on you crazy diamond...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Man and God

    the sentiment of the ops version is more proper than the sentiment in enochs and yours :O

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    Default Re: Man and God

    all words are lies

  12. #12

    Default Re: Man and God

    no doubt :O

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    Default Re: Man and God

    is a band

  14. #14

    Default Re: Man and God

    I believe the teachings of Jesus were beautiful or those that are supposedly said to be his are truly beautiful. But not even knowing whether they are his indeed are a flaw that i find in christianity ... and i do not trust the papal catholic church (which supposedly is the only true church according to sum *Cough*Pope*Cough* .. yeah rite !)

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    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: Man and God

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    I believe the teachings of Jesus were beautiful or those that are supposedly said to be his are truly beautiful. But not even knowing whether they are his indeed are a flaw that i find in christianity ... and i do not trust the papal catholic church (which supposedly is the only true church according to sum *Cough*Pope*Cough* .. yeah rite !)

    Prince
    Jesus was a nice person... Calm,silent.. And was an excellent carpenter as well,a true artist for his time.It was a real shame that he was crucified by the Chinese.

    And it's also a surprise how his teachings didn't evolve into a religion.Well maybe someday,who knows?
    Shine on you crazy diamond...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Man and God

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephrelial View Post
    Jesus was a nice person... Calm,silent.. And was an excellent carpenter as well,a true artist for his time.It was a real shame that he was crucified by the Chinese.

    And it's also a surprise how his teachings didn't evolve into a religion.Well maybe someday,who knows?
    Someday ... yes we all hope it comes. And the chineese didn't crucify Jesus. It was the English silly !!!

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    Growing Up In The Universe <- Check It Out !!!




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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    Someday ... yes we all hope it comes. And the chineese didn't crucify Jesus. It was the English silly !!!

    Prince
    I don't understand that at all.Obviously this was an overlooked matter,Christianity could not become a religion that would be the faith of thousands of people...

    I have great ideas about this:

    Its book should have been called the Scorpion Bible ( a charismatic name)

    ,There should have been a leader for all the Christians: Pope (it's fairly
    easy to pronounce and write)

    Also Christians should have called some gatherings,where all the Christians could get together and discuss how they can spread christianity throughout the World...

    If people accepted Christianity no prob. However if they refused Christians should have declared a holy war in the name of Jesus and should have called it : "Crusade"

    Also you are not right about saying it's the English who crucified Jesus,I will present some documents very soon proving that it was Chinese,there is a side-theory that a few of them were Sarmatians...

    Perphaps Enoch could clarify this a bit,he is a great theologian... Enoch was Christ crucified by the Chinese,English or the Sarmatians? Would you care to share your immense knowledge with us,being ignorant men?
    Shine on you crazy diamond...

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    IamthePope's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Man and God

    The idea of a single indivisible church as well as the notion of petrine primacy (the primacy of the Pope) predates the Council of Nicea and the Edict of Milan. Indeed, these dogmas of faith are evident in the time of the Apostles and Early Christians.

    "Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the time of a man, except that it should be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior age?" -Marcus Tullius Cicero

  19. #19
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Man and God

    It's a shame that this thread has been hi-jacked into the typical nonsense debates about the accuracy of the New Testament authors. If you wawnt to talk about that, then there are a thousand other threads for you to go to. So, if you don't have anything positive to bring to the actual point of this thread, then don't bring anything to it.

    This means you, Enoch!

    Quote Originally Posted by IamthePope
    Is this a reference to 'papal indulgences' or the protestant idea heresy of Sola Fide (faith alone)?
    Well, I was thinking more on the lines of the Protestant ideas of Sola Fide. Actually, Sola Fide in and of itself is perfectly acceptable; the problem is however that it is totally misinterpreted by a lot of Evangelicals, almost to the point where they think that you shouldn't do good works. My point was that faith in God is composed of intellectual choice and good works together. Neither one on its own leads to faith in God.

    Quote Originally Posted by IamthePope
    The idea of a single indivisible church as well as the notion of petrine primacy (the primacy of the Pope) predates the Council of Nicea and the Edict of Milan. Indeed, these dogmas of faith are evident in the time of the Apostles and Early Christians.
    I agree that the idea of a single, indivisible Church is as old as Christianity itself (dating back to Pentecost, of course), but I beg to differ on the question of the Petrine primacy of Rome! Petrine primacy was not invoked in a single one of the Seven Oecumenical Councils (I do not count the councils following the schism as 'Oecumenical', because the Orthodox were not present), and until the ascendancy of the Holy Roman Empire it is safe to say that it was not a reality for the Christian Church. Indeed, it's because the Pope first attempted to use Petrine primacy only in the 11th century as an excuse to force his will on the rest of the Christian Church that the schism between Orthodox and Latins happened then. If the Pope had attempted to invoke Petrine primacy any earlier, then the schism would have happened earlier as well, because the whole concept of an individual man usurping Christ's role as head of the Church was completely foreign to the Christian Church.

    But there you go, I'm getting sidetracked now. Any ideas on the actual point of this thread?

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    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: Man and God

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    It's a shame that this thread has been hi-jacked into the typical nonsense debates about the accuracy of the New Testament authors. If you wawnt to talk about that, then there are a thousand other threads for you to go to. So, if you don't have anything positive to bring to the actual point of this thread, then don't bring anything to it.

    This means you, Enoch!



    Well, I was thinking more on the lines of the Protestant ideas of Sola Fide. Actually, Sola Fide in and of itself is perfectly acceptable; the problem is however that it is totally misinterpreted by a lot of Evangelicals, almost to the point where they think that you shouldn't do good works. My point was that faith in God is composed of intellectual choice and good works together. Neither one on its own leads to faith in God.



    I agree that the idea of a single, indivisible Church is as old as Christianity itself (dating back to Pentecost, of course), but I beg to differ on the question of the Petrine primacy of Rome! Petrine primacy was not invoked in a single one of the Seven Oecumenical Councils (I do not count the councils following the schism as 'Oecumenical', because the Orthodox were not present), and until the ascendancy of the Holy Roman Empire it is safe to say that it was not a reality for the Christian Church. Indeed, it's because the Pope first attempted to use Petrine primacy only in the 11th century as an excuse to force his will on the rest of the Christian Church that the schism between Orthodox and Latins happened then. If the Pope had attempted to invoke Petrine primacy any earlier, then the schism would have happened earlier as well, because the whole concept of an individual man usurping Christ's role as head of the Church was completely foreign to the Christian Church.

    But there you go, I'm getting sidetracked now. Any ideas on the actual point of this thread?
    If the purpose for you to opening this thread was to express how you were deeply effected by all the promises of salvation,indicated in Book of matthew,chapter 5 (3-10) you've already achieved that.

    I'll be honest and won't deny that these verses have stirred some positive feelings in me,however after a second and not another second after that,I fully came to realization that these are false promises and deception at its worst just like all the religions are any good at.

    I shall judge God at this point and will state how I see all his promises of salvation are fake and serves only the purpose of making people totally obedient,passive and vulnerable to the harsh realities of the Life we live in...

    This paragraph and it's sequel is for God alone,and not for mortal eyes lest he exists and is reading this post.You don't need to make people suffer and make them go through all of the difficulties by making them weak,causing them to be hungry.There is not much meaning or reason to advice them to be peacemakers in a dog-eat dog world,where "money" is the true God of this Earth and people had chosen to worship it,to fill the eternal absence which you created.

    For this deity which is "money" your subjects are deceiving eachother,young girls sell their flesh,and prominent men at the seats of power (politicians) throw the lives away,spending them like currency .There is not an ounce of mercy shown to people that don't have money.These people become what we mortals call "bums" they sleep on streets and beg for the God (money) while you slouch back and watch all of this...

    Finally you expect too much from a species that you have given so less.If you wish and demand so many different a thing from humans,you should have created them flawless and perfect in every sense,and provided a magnificent place for them.

    However,the human anatomy is flawed,the human nerve system is fragile,we wither and rot with time,also we are capable of most sinister and tyranical designs.You are like a modder that had released a single mod that is full or bugs from down to top,and all its players are calling you and hoping from you the next version,you do nothing but give false promises.

    I'm sorry Zenith Darksea,but God has nothing good to give to people,or that can aid them in this World,if you want to feel good,if these lies relieve you and you put stock in them because you need to..just go ahead But be warned that there is a great chestitement and disappointment awaiting for you and for all the rest of the believers when your lives are over...

    You'll ask what is this chastitement I speak of? .. Well,what more is there a greater chastitement for a man of faith,to finally see when all is over;that there is no God but darkness...
    Last edited by Zephrelial; July 20, 2007 at 09:04 PM.
    Shine on you crazy diamond...

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