I have never made a proposition before, and am not very familiar with the Constitution, so any suggestions/help is welcomed and appreciated.
The purpose of this amendment is to:
(1) define a new role, possibly replacing that of Modder Liaison Officer, which would be more useful to the modding community, mostly in respect to what Professor420 has described in his thread here
(2) allow Professor420, or any other willing non-citizen involved in the modding community, to run for the position of Modding Infrastructure Supervisor/Engineer, without forcing him to become a citizen before hand, and:
I don't know if this would/should replace the position of Modder Liaison Officer or not, or would it require another, separate amendment?
So, here's my approximate proposition :
An Addendum to the list within the "Permanent Officers" section as followed:
Supporters:
Arakorn-eir
Not sure what if I am missing anything else, oh, and I don't know what else I need to do to allow a non-citizen to run, but it seems that Mimirswell will help with that.
I think that we should consider very carefully before making decisions like these just because of one person who cannot run to this position. After all, it was him who resigned his citizenship, not the other way around.
Last edited by Ragabash; July 19, 2007 at 12:27 AM.
A liaison is someone who acts a facilitator between two parties. In this case, the two parties are the Curia and the TW Community. Professor420 has demonstrated a certain level of disdain for the Curia nor is he a member. Given such, the probability is quite high he would not make a satisfactory liaison.
That said, his purpose (and he laid some very strong hints in the aforementioned thread) was the creation of a new rank that encompasses his plans. I suggest you endeavor towards the creation of such a rank. Here is a rough draft based on your proposal:
An Addendum to the list within the "Permanent Officers" section as followed:
Just quote me and copy the text above and make whatever edits you like.
Ok, well, I agree that the "liaison" part of Modder Liaison would/has become irrelevant, so an new position should be proposed instead. BTW, should I edit my first post?
An Addendum to the list within the "Permanent Officers" section as followed:
I do not view this position to act as some kind of "modding community dictator", but rather as an organizer while the other modders are busy modding. I am in no way trying to be biased to the CC, but the CC does not require such a position because the CC does not necessarily have a specific goal to achieve, such as the completion of a mod project, and thus does not need someone to help organize resources and such. The CC is guided by moderators and rules, in order promote more intelligent and interesting discussions, which is IMHO the goal of the CC; while the modding community needs to be guided towards productivity, which is the goal of the proposed position.
Last edited by drak10687; July 19, 2007 at 01:09 AM.
That's up to you, people do it both ways. I am going to edit the above post to name the amendment and add in spots for Proposer and Supporters. Feel free to change the name to whatever you like.
Ok, well, I agree that the "liaison" part of Modder Liaison would/has become irrelevant, so an new position should be proposed instead. BTW, should I edit my first post?
An Addendum to the list within the "Permanent Officers" section as followed:
I do not view this position to act as some kind of "modding community dictator", but rather as an organizer while the other modders are busy modding.
Sounds good generally, I was involved in the original discussion of the Modder Liaison post and am aware in retrospect that we got too prescriptive with it. I'd support it either getting a more general description (like the Wiki Editor one which really doesn't define anything at all) or gets re-named and given an extended remit. Speaking of extended remit, if you're going to try and list everything they should do, how come everyone managed to forget about co-ordinating with the Wiki - you know that thing that was meant to be the most useful source of modding information etc.
I'd be inclined to describe the position in slightly more general terms if possible though - so we don't have to get another amendment if someone comes up with more ideas what could be included/delegated, or if a future applicant comes up with an alternative 'mission statement' that people would like to accept.
Would support this and possibly other roles (like mine) being open to non-civs, think it worked quite well with the committees having people able to apply via staff. The applicant would still be voted on by curia so there is actually more curial control than there was on committees.
Originally Posted by Ragabash
I think that we should consider very carefully before making decisions like these just because of one person who cannot run to this position. After all, it was him who resigned his citizenship, not the other way around.
I can think of at least one other non-civ I'd like for this post - suspect my arm twisting skills aren't good enough to get him to apply though....
well, just to make my intentions clear, I'll quote what I posted in the other thread:
While I am not offering my take of the "political" side of this proposition, of Prof's opinions, or the opinions of anyone else, and for all means and purposes I would like it to remain strictly neutral, as well as anyone else's "political" opinion of me (if that makes any sense)...
...I am posting in support of Professor420's nomination as Modder Liaison Officer as I believe that he has the dedication and skills required to fulfill what he intends to achieve, and that his election to the position can only benefit the modding community that I am part of.
As I am not very concerned with how this is done, as long as it does not hamper Prof's ability to help the community, I have posted a proposition in the Curia in order to allow Prof to be nominated to the position of Modder Liaison Officer, in case he is eventually denied nomination through any other means.
The essential question is, is this position still useful? As I posted elsewhere, the disparity between Artifices and Civitates is shrinking, presently standing at a little less than 20; from this, we can conclude that modders have as much representation in the Curia as they want and require - the fact that this your first proposal simply shows that modders, as a whole, are not using their rights. Actually, even that isn't true; again, as posted elsewhere, artifices are voting in roughly equal numbers to civitates. So, a liason is not required to bring Modding issues to the Curia; as it stands, we might as well abolish the post.
Now to move onto the very Bill you propose. First, opening a Curial Officer up to noncitizens is a strange move; by definition, the Curial Officer is an agent of the Curia and therefore should be a member of the Curia, not one who has spurned it repeatedly. If no one can be found willing to do the duty, that points to an inherent problem with the duty, not the candidates. The solution is not therefore to widen the range of candidates beyond the Curia.
The duty of the Liason is something you are also wholly rewriting to the point of stopping it being a liason. Let us be honest: you are creating a Mod Leader, not a Modder Liason. Further, you are doing it in such a manner that betrays a lack of confidence in the modders; I believe that the modders are competent to organise themselves and request anything they want of the Curia, of Hex, and of other areas of staff, such as the Scriptorium; in fact, the Eagle Standard, Wiki, and Scriptorium showcase such ability rather well, making it ironic that you single one of these out. Your other aims are best put forward not as new duties of an individual to sort out, but organised by the community of modders; again, I am supremely confident that they are well able to organise themselves, research the relevant areas, and then request whatever they want in whatever form they want.
Basically, I do not believe the modders need a leader and organiser in the form of a hegemoniacal dictator elected as much by the CC as the Modders themselves any more than the CC posters need such a thing; that is, not in the slightest.
I am against a one person Modding Infrastructure Supervisor/Engineer role, it's just too much work for one person, so it would get done very slowly. The work should be done by those who can so things get done.
Prof's self-nomination and his promises have nothing to do with the current role of Modder Liasion, and they are things he can do without a title, nevermind the fact i think he is seriously overstretching himself with all those promises.
I would like to note that the Council has two very prolific modders with very strong links to the community who do work on this sort of thing; to elect a third person, completely separately, to do the same with none of the direct accesses or powers of the first two individuals at present seems an illogical course of action as opposed to, say, petitioning those members (Halie and Publius) with requests to take specific causes or courses of action up.
well, either I was not around, or I wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall of the C.O.W. seems like a good idea though; however, I can I see people arguing that it would be in some kind of competition with the Curia, or would serve to split the Total War and CC community... if it gets the job done though, I'm all for it. In the mean time, I'll try to improve my proposition.
Ok, well, I have edited my first post to reflect the current suggestions that I agree with... I am also wondering if there is a possibility to add something along the lines of: "the MIS/E has the option of selecting willing members of TWC to aid him in the carrying out of specific tasks" ... not sure what such positions would be called, and if they should be elected as well... though it seems that electing them would require more amendments and more overall time... but if it has to be that way....
Last edited by drak10687; July 19, 2007 at 10:34 AM.
the bill doesn't need to say it renumbers articles. the Curator is already possessed of the power to renumber artiucles are required when an amendment is passed.
i would strongly oppose any motion that allows non citizens to hold curia offices.
the very PURPOSE of the curia is to help run the site, and the entire idea behind the citizen system is that those members who contribute to the community get to have a say in running the community. If a member wants to take part in running the site, he should be made a citizen, and he should have the level of maturity, responsibility and good posting behaviour required to keep that rank. None of these are especially high goals to meet.
What precisely is the point of the Curia, and the ranks, if anyone can take part, if its open to any and every spammer n00b and new member to decide policy? It merely becomes the pointless self legislating RPG that its so often criticised for being, and i will strongly oppose any amendment or proposal that attempts to take us down that line, and should it be the will of the citizens that we go there, i'd rather see the Curia closed than reduced to that, because that is not what it's for, and is not what it was founded to be.
By all means, recreate the council of war. But keep it in the Curia, and keep it to citizens. Its not like the curia is not visible, and people cannot see whats going on, and its not like we don't have enough modders here in the curia., For the last year or so, easily half of all new citizens have been drawn from among the modders.
Yes, i hear everyday about how there are people out there who want to contribute, are able to do so, and yet are not citizens. And yet, the people who ask me this have not patronised them, nor have these people nominated themselves.
By all means, recreate the council of war. But keep it in the Curia, and keep it to citizens. Its not like the curia is not visible, and people cannot see whats going on, and its not like we don't have enough modders here in the curia., For the last year or so, easily half of all new citizens have been drawn from among the modders.
But what would be the drawbacks of allowing non-citizens to be aprt of it? I mean look at the site expansion committee which a non-citizen, Kanaric, led very well.
it renders pointless the curia. you might as well dissolve the system here and now, and just have staff run committees through the suggestions forum.
the right to have a say in the running of the site is the reward given to citizens for thweir contribution to this community. kanaric was stripped of his rank, through poor conduct, why should he have a say in how this site is run?
Simple. He had a lot of damn good and relevant ideas, and an incredible amount of enthusiasm. We are a meritocracy, right? So surely, let's be meritocratic, which is what this allows for.
it renders pointless the curia. you might as well dissolve the system here and now, and just have staff run committees through the suggestions forum.
It does not render the uria pointless, stop being dramtic. Oh no, one council devoted to improving the site with elected members and non-citizens who can be invited in. I can guarantee you if it is just citizens it will not work properly. non-citizens like prof need to be included given how mcuh effort they put into the site and improving it.
the right to have a say in the running of the site is the reward given to citizens for thweir contribution to this community. kanaric was stripped of his rank, through poor conduct, why should he have a say in how this site is run?
Because he had very good ideas and was very effective at running tihngs. Having a badge next to your name does not automatically make a citizen a good organiser. the more voices and people helping with things to improve the site the better. If you limit it to just citizens you will just hmaper things, things will not work well and in the end you will just end up hurting the site.
yes, we're a meritocracy - the citizens are the ones with merit - they are the ones who have a say. if a member has merit, he'd be made a citizen. i seem to recall that not only was kanaric ostrakoned, his application to return to the rank of citizen was rejected
yes, we're a meritocracy - the citizens are the ones with merit - they are the ones who have a say. if a member has merit, he'd be made a citizen.
Some people with merit aren't citizens, or don't want to be. We cannot exclude people who work very hard for this site just because they don't have a badge. If you do you just damage the council/committees, and make the Curia look even more elitist.
redifining/replacing Modder Liaison Officer
Originally Posted by drak10687
