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Thread: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

  1. #101

    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    I don't believe Kemalism won't die any time soon. Kemal did not take the example of his predecessors (Talaat, Enver, Djemal) and use tactics like genocide (Armenian Genocide, Pontic Genocide, etc.) to take land that he believed was his. The only incident I believe that is questionable is the burning of Smyrna, but it was probably not ordered by him in the first place, so he isn't responsible. He saved his people from the brink of destruction, defeating Greeks and the other allies in short order even when he was outnumbered. He was a brilliant general who was only defeated a few times during WWI. He never killed innocent people and always remained honorable in his endeavors. I don't like how many Turks today are being radical about him, but his legacy surely doesn't have to be destroyed, I see no reason for it.
    Last edited by Drtad; July 21, 2007 at 02:32 PM.
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  2. #102
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephrelial View Post
    At those times plundering,sacking and raping when a city was conquered wasn't only exclusive to the Ottoman army,it was like a custom and many nations of that time applied the same system... You should have known this already Duke of Bavaria...
    this is mostly what happens in this forum

    when something - considered the norm in those times - is done against the europeans by the muslims it is BAD aka sieges/massacres/killing civilians.

    if europeans does bad things to other europeans its OKAY, we are COOL

    again if europeans do bad things to muslims its OKAY, they were defending/it was european land/it is their heritage/it was a christian blah blah

    this was very explicitly demonstrated by the same dozens of people who voted agains the making of mosque in germany

    but voted for hagia sofie given back to orthodox faith

    european fanboism ftw

  3. #103

    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    but voted for hagia sofie given back to orthodox faith
    Methinks that seems reasonable today, as long as they allow the Mosque to be built in Cologne . Afterall Turkey is no radical islamic country, it's a secular state with freedon of religion. So as Germany.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  4. #104
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    I for one hope "Kemalism" dies out. Extreme nationalism (or nationalism in general) I find to be an odd creature.
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  5. #105
    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condell View Post
    this is mostly what happens in this forum

    when something - considered the norm in those times - is done against the europeans by the muslims it is BAD aka sieges/massacres/killing civilians.

    if europeans does bad things to other europeans its OKAY, we are COOL

    again if europeans do bad things to muslims its OKAY, they were defending/it was european land/it is their heritage/it was a christian blah blah

    this was very explicitly demonstrated by the same dozens of people who voted agains the making of mosque in germany

    but voted for hagia sofie given back to orthodox faith

    european fanboism ftw
    You need to evaluate certain incidents based on their period Condell... And plundering and raping is still practiced in modern day,too just take a look at the incidents happened during the invasion and destruction of Iraq...
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  6. #106
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephrelial View Post
    And plundering and raping is still practiced in modern day,too just take a look at the incidents happened during the invasion and destruction of Iraq...
    agreed

  7. #107

    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote:"And Islam is kept out of politics"
    An Al-Jazeera documentary which clearly has a huge bias towards an islamic state


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    Good post Amagi +rep

  8. #108
    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    I for one hope "Kemalism" dies out. Extreme nationalism (or nationalism in general) I find to be an odd creature.
    And I hope that Kemalism won't die out because if it does the only thing that keeps this country together and prevents it to fall apart is Kemalism...

    If it dies out,then this country will be ruled by Sheriat.. which give americans another casus belli to wage war against us,I guess you wish Kemalism to die out for this particular reason,not that you care about nationalism...

    Besides Kemalism isn't an ideology that can be referred to as "Extreme Nationalism"
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  9. #109

    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Besides Kemalism isn't an ideology that can be referred to as "Extreme Nationalism"
    Better Kemalism than Wahabism. When I first read about Ataturk, I was admired about his unprecedent efforts to modernize Turkey and take it out of its pre-historical past. Without Ataturk, Turks would be reading and writing in Arabic and acting like Saudi Arabians.

    But at least the extremists would be happy. Constantinople would be "Greek", so as Smyrna and most of Ancient Ionia. Turkey would be a pawn of whatever came to have power in these lands, including Iran.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  10. #110
    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Tullius Cicero View Post
    Better Kemalism than Wahabism. When I first read about Ataturk, I was admired about his unprecedent efforts to modernize Turkey and take it out of its pre-historical past. Without Ataturk, Turks would be reading and writing in Arabic and acting like Saudi Arabians.

    But at least the extremists would be happy. Constantinople would be "Greek", so as Smyrna and most of Ancient Ionia. Turkey would be a pawn of whatever came to have power in these lands, including Iran.
    Exactly Marcus..
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  11. #111
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephrelial View Post
    At those times plundering,sacking and raping when a city was conquered wasn't only exclusive to the Ottoman army,it was like a custom and many nations of that time applied the same system... You should have known this already Duke of Bavaria...
    Indeed it was, I never said it was a "Turk thing", I only said that it was far from easy going. The latins did just as bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41 View Post
    The thing is that many Europeans and Greeks make that "Turks are Mongoloid" statement as a sort of insult. But it ends up revealing more about the mentality of themselves than of turks. Because a lot of Turks seems to be actually quite proud of their central asian heritage and don't see it as an insult at all.
    Perhaps. I surely don't expect them to take it as an insult.

    PS. Was Kemal an ethnic Greek or what?

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  12. #112
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke_of_Bavaria View Post
    PS. Was Kemal an ethnic Greek or what?

    Ethnically I think he was macedonian not Greek...
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  13. #113
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephrelial View Post

    If it dies out,then this country will be ruled by Sheriat.. which give americans another casus belli to wage war against us,I guess you wish Kemalism to die out for this particular reason,not that you care about nationalism...
    why in gods name would I want a war with Turkey? If you've read any of my posts here before, you'll know that for the most part, I'm against American intervention. But good job assuming...

    Besides Kemalism isn't an ideology that can be referred to as "Extreme Nationalism"
    every time I see something said bad about Turkey, Turks are all over it like flies on ****ing ****. Turkey can do no wrong...if that's not nationalism, I don't know what is.

    I suppose if I had to choose between nationalism or religious extremists, I'd go for the former, but I'd really wish for neither.
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  14. #114
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Tullius Cicero View Post
    Better Kemalism than Wahabism.
    I agree. But there is a more middle path. The hardline brand of Kemalism was needed in the hey days of the Turkish Republic. But nowadays, clamping down too hard on the more devout Muslims of Turkey will only backfire and garner more support for the fudamentalists. I for one hope that the Turkish miliatary really stays out of the next elections, best to let the AK party have its run and if it proves to be utterly evil Islamists, then crush them, if they prove to be loyal to the secular tradition, there is no loss.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephrelial View Post
    Ethnically I think he was macedonian not Greek...
    Right, I assumed since
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Atatürk was born in 1881 in the Ottoman city of Selânik (modern-day Thessaloniki, Greece)

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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    every time I see something said bad about Turkey, Turks are all over it like flies on ****ing ****. Turkey can do no wrong...if that's not nationalism, I don't know what is.
    Good point. But remember that the nationalism is not an island. The whole area from the Balkans to the Caucusus is a an area of mutual hatreds that just fuels one another's nationalism.

    Turks are paranoid of Armenians, Greeks of Turks, Turks of Greeks, Armenians of Turks, Armenians of Georgians, Georgians of Armenians, Armenians of Azeris, Bosnians of Serbs, Serbs of Bosnians.. etc. It never ends.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Yeah it's just like pre-ww1, the Balkans is a barrel of gun-powder waiting to explode, now Turkey and Caucasus are in the picture aswell.

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  18. #118
    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    why in gods name would I want a war with Turkey? If you've read any of my posts here before, you'll know that for the most part, I'm against American intervention. But good job assuming...
    I just saw your that particular post,none other.That was a skeptical assumption of mine,if you say that you wouldn't want a war with Turkey,then I believe you and there is no problem.
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  19. #119

    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41 View Post
    Turks are paranoid of Armenians, Armenians of Turks, Armenians of Georgians, Georgians of Armenians, Armenians of Azeris.
    I am afraid that the former two are accurate after the Karabakh war, but I am going to have to object to the latter. Georgians have been very hostile to Armenians recently, but Armenians have much more to worry about in Azerbaijan and Turkey than Georgia (a state which to me seems like its falling apart at the seams). Armenia's hostility towards Azerbaijan is perfectly justified anyway (Sumgait Pogrom, Baku Pogrom, threat of a new invasion, etc...).
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  20. #120
    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: When Will Kemalism Follow Leninism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drtad View Post
    I am afraid that the former two are accurate after the Karabakh war, but I am going to have to object to the latter. Georgians have been very hostile to Armenians recently, but Armenians have much more to worry about in Azerbaijan and Turkey than Georgia (a state which to me seems like its falling apart at the seams). Armenia's hostility towards Azerbaijan is perfectly justified anyway (Sumgait Pogrom, Baku Pogrom, threat of a new invasion, etc...).
    Yes but here is an another example that I'd like to give about my statement claiming usually the hostility is between the governments and not their people...

    My example is Drtad is Armenian and I'm Turkish but we get along pretty well and doesn't have any enmity between us.
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