Did the religion of islam bring the Iberian Moors great culture and advancement

[Vuk]

by any means other than encouraging them to conquer advanced places and steal knowledge?
Since most of the great islamic thinkers weren't moors or arabs, or even muslim, was it really islam that brought them their "greatness", or was it their barbaric conquest spurned by the islamic religion that made them so "great".

I don't want a flame war or a rabid defence of islam. I want historical proof that points to the source of their supposed greatness and what exactly there was that made them great. I need this info.

Thanks,
Vuk

[removeduser_487563287433]

The medieval islamic world was in general a highly technologically advanced society, and it had nothing to do with stealing technology through conquest. At the time of Islamic expansion much of the Meditterean, including Spain, was occupied by 'barbaric' peoples, such as the Vandals.

The islamic world sat on an area with great outside influence for knowledge, bringing far eastern inventions such as gunpowder and the rudder to the western world. They also maintained knowledge inheirited from the Roman Empire that had been lost everywhere in Europe outside of a handful of Irish monastries.

They were also great scientists by their own virtue.

[Vuk]

As I already said ( ), the Moors' geographical location could hardly make them as advanced as they became during the period of Islamic expansion. Could you contradict that the Arabs helped them develop a flourishing culture? If not, then the Arabs were pushed into expansion by the leadership of Islam. They wanted to plunder and pillage, yes. But Islam did not teach them to plunder and pillage. It just gave them the opportunity.

On the contrary, it ordered them too. They mudered, pillaged, raped, etc. I will not get in on the arguement, but I will moderate.

The medieval islamic world was in general a highly technologically advanced society, and it had nothing to do with stealing technology through conquest. At the time of Islamic expansion much of the Meditterean, including Spain, was occupied by 'barbaric' peoples, such as the Vandals.

The islamic world sat on an area with great outside influence for knowledge, bringing far eastern inventions such as gunpowder and the rudder to the western world. They also maintained knowledge inheirited from the Roman Empire that had been lost everywhere in Europe outside of a handful of Irish monastries.

They were also great scientists by their own virtue.

BS
All theri technology was from mercs, conquered places, etc. They got most of their technology and culture from Byzantium. Till then they actually had very little. Most of the great muslim mathematitians were not arab or moorish. (or muslim)

What you both said and what I said is not discussion. A lot of people have a lot to say, but I want accurate citations for everything posted. No offence, but I saw what was taught in highschool to. I only want fact.

Vuk

[iudas]

As I already said ( ), the Moors' geographical location could hardly make them as advanced as they became during the period of Islamic expansion. Could you contradict that the Arabs helped them develop a flourishing culture? If not, then the Arabs were pushed into expansion by the leadership of Islam. They wanted to plunder and pillage, yes. But Islam did not teach them to plunder and pillage. It just gave them the opportunity.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Well the early Moorish rulers of Spain were incredibly tolerant to both Jews and Christians obviously producing an environment were Jewish trade, culture and technological wisdom could be focused and developed.

BS
All theri technology was from mercs, conquered places, etc. They got most of their technology and culture from Byzantium. Till then they actually had very little. Most of the great muslim mathematitians were not arab or moorish. (or muslim)

What you both said and what I said is not discussion. A lot of people have a lot to say, but I want accurate citations for everything posted. No offence, but I saw what was taught in highschool to. I only want fact.

Vuk

Sorry but it's true. Among the inventions we owe to the muslim world are;

optics,
algebra,
trigonomentry,
camera obscura,
hang glider,
soap,
shampoo,
valves,
suction piston pump,
mechanical clocks,
scalpel,
windmill,
smallpox vacinations,
fountain pens,
glasses,
cheques,
torpedoes.

[Vuk]

Well the early Moorish rulers of Spain were incredibly tolerant to both Jews and Christians obviously producing an environment were Jewish trade, culture and technological wisdom could be focused and developed.

Source? Muhammad said slaughter them all unless they convert or accept to be slaves and pay a tax. The only times the muslims left them alive is when they needed them (wonder how they got their greatness?) or were afraid to start an outright slaughter.

Vuk

[iudas]

You should give a source, because it is you who does not accept a historical fact, unanimously accepted by historians.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Source? Muhammad said slaughter them all unless they convert or accept to be slaves and pay a tax. The only times the muslims left them alive is when they needed them (wonder how they got their greatness?) or were afraid to start an outright slaughter.

Vuk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anda..._the_Caliphate

The moors did not demand they converted. I am unsure if they levied a tax. In any case the Islamic rulers of Spain were far more tolerant than their Christian contemporaries and certainly more so than their successors.

I have a feeling that smallpox vaccine was not invented by the Medieval Moors.
Beside each one they did invent, give the name of the inventor. I am willing to bet you that they are not muslim. Algebra was invented inside a muslim nation but not by a muslim. That is what I mean, what did they do THEMSELVES? Very little other than conquer.

Vuk

Every single one of those were invented not only by muslims, but in the Islamic golden age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...Age#Technology

[Lupu]

Source? Muhammad said slaughter them all unless they convert or accept to be slaves and pay a tax. The only times the muslims left them alive is when they needed them (wonder how they got their greatness?) or were afraid to start an outright slaughter.

Vuk

My ansver is a bit offtopic but its about christianity and islam in medieval times:

Actually the arabs had nothing against other religions, when they conjhquered for example christian land they didnt destroy churches, actually they sometimes built churches if the christian people of the town were many enough and demanded it.

The christians started crusades and killed as many other-religious as possible.

Technological the islamic world in me3dieavl times was far more advanced than the christian world - In military, culture, technology and wealth.

Im christian, but I face it...


A-L

[Vuk]

Vuk, you are the essence of irony. You are as intolerant to Islam as your image of Muhammad is to everyone else.
Since you're so Christian, behave like one and tolerate all faiths, especially one which we've proven to have created a great civilisation.

Your right, I do not believe that islam should be allowed. It has nothing to do with tolerance, islam is a danger to the civilised world and the people who follow it, just as nazism was. Should we have been tolerant of Nazis?

My ansver is a bit offtopic but its about christianity and islam in medieval times:

Actually the arabs had nothing against other religions, when they conjhquered for example christian land they didnt destroy churches, actually they sometimes built churches if the christian people of the town were many enough and demanded it.


The christians started crusades and killed as many other-religious as possible.

Technological the islamic world in me3dieavl times was far more advanced than the christian world - In military, culture, technology and wealth.

Im christian, but I face it...
A-L

They killed the Christians, dishonored the churches, and turned most into mosques.
The Crusades were in responce to a millineum of muslim conquest. Learn you history.

Vuk

[jabo0511]

They killed the Christians, dishonored the churches, and turned most into mosques.
The Crusades were in responce to a millineum of muslim conquest. Learn you history.

Vuk

Where's your source? Please provide them

[Vuk]

Well the early Moorish rulers of Spain were incredibly tolerant to both Jews and Christians obviously producing an environment were Jewish trade, culture and technological wisdom could be focused and developed.



Sorry but it's true. Among the inventions we owe to the muslim world are;

optics,
algebra,
trigonomentry,
camera obscura,
hang glider,
soap,
shampoo,
valves,
suction piston pump,
mechanical clocks,
scalpel,
windmill,
smallpox vacinations,
fountain pens,
glasses,
cheques,
torpedoes.

I have a feeling that smallpox vaccine was not invented by the Medieval Moors.
Beside each one they did invent, give the name of the inventor. I am willing to bet you that they are not muslim. Algebra was invented inside a muslim nation but not by a muslim. That is what I mean, what did they do THEMSELVES? Very little other than conquer.

Vuk

[Vuk]

I told you that I am only moderating. I want to see both sides.

Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī wrote The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing. He was a Persian who, after Persia was conquered by the muslims, wrote The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing. That is one of the greatest contributions made to algebra, or at least the greatest compilation of the great contributions.
The Persians were forced to convert or die. He used to be zoroastrian, but then the great islam forced him to convert, and - LOH and BEHOLD! He became one of the greatest mathemititians ever!
There's one for islam.

Vuk

[Vuk]

"The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed"


Real sources please. People like you write those articles. People who want to praise islam.

EDIT: These are all attributed to islam, I am asking if you know if the people who actually made the inventions were muslims (by their own will) and if it was the religion of islam that is responsible for the inventions, and not just that a great wave of techology was happening all over the world.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I told you that I am only moderating. I want to see both sides.

Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī wrote The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing. He was a Persian who, after Persia was conquered by the muslims, wrote The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing. That is one of the greatest contributions made to algebra, or at least the greatest compilation of the great contributions.
The Persians were forced to convert or die. He used to be zoroastrian, but then the great islam forced him to convert, and - LOH and BEHOLD! He became one of the greatest mathemititians ever!
There's one for islam.

Vuk

I can find no source that says Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī was ever anything but a muslim. Wikipedia says that the only suggestion is his name and that it may well mean his ancestors were Zoroastrians, not him.

"The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed"


Real sources please. People like you write those articles. People who want to praise islam.

You could always provide a source of your own. Just because I am not a deep-south Christian fundamentalist doesn't mean I want to praise Islam, Vuk. I like history in its value as truth - not as a tool for justifying our modern prejudices.

[Vuk]

I can find no source that says Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī was ever anything but a muslim. Wikipedia says that the only suggestion is his name and that it may well mean his ancestors were Zoroastrians, not him.



You could always provide a source of your own. Just because I am not a deep-south Christian fundamentalist doesn't mean I want to praise Islam, Vuk. I like history in its value as truth - not as a tool for justifying our modern prejudices.

First of all, I am from MASS. That is not exactly deep-south. You are only trying to do one thing, that is justify islam.
I told you, I am not getting in on the discussion, but mearly posting what I know to show that it is impossible to take what you say as fact till you source it. Source yours and I will believe it.

I read about Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī many years ago when I was studying Medieval History at my Uni so I could get a teaching degree. I have been teaching history for years my dear friend. Who is uneducated?

Vuk

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Sorry but it's true. Among the inventions we owe to the muslim world are ...

I don't disagree with you main point, but several items on the list you give below which are not from the Islamic world:

optics,
algebra,
trigonomentry,
camera obscura,
hang glider,
soap,
shampoo,
valves,
suction piston pump,
mechanical clocks,
scalpel,
windmill,
smallpox vacinations,
fountain pens,
glasses,
cheques,
torpedoes.

Soap was invented by the Celts.
Mechanical clocks were a medieval European invention.
Vertical windmills were a European invention, though horizontal ones existed in the Middle East.
Glasses were invented in medieval Europe.

Be careful of some of the sites on the subject of medieval Islamic science. I've seen several of them make claims about glasses and clocks being Islamic inventions, when this is simply untrue.

[boofhead]

Sorry but it's true. Among the inventions we owe to the muslim world are;

optics,
algebra,
trigonomentry,
camera obscura,
hang glider,
soap,
shampoo,
valves,
suction piston pump,
mechanical clocks,
scalpel,
windmill,
smallpox vacinations,
fountain pens,
glasses,
cheques,
torpedoes.

A lot of these are outright lies. The Arab revisionist methods of historical self-analysis are well documented - lies about history, peaceful expansion, treatment of minorities, and "inventions".

Peruse this blog - it gives the facts about a lot of those "inventions" listed above.

http://crypticsubterranean.blogspot....invention.html

Now I am sure medieval muslims invented some things, but certainly not just about everything as some claim.

[pannonian]

by any means other than encouraging them to conquer advanced places and steal knowledge?
Since most of the great islamic thinkers weren't moors or arabs, or even muslim, was it really islam that brought them their "greatness", or was it their barbaric conquest spurned by the islamic religion that made them so "great".

I don't want a flame war or a rabid defence of islam. I want historical proof that points to the source of their supposed greatness and what exactly there was that made them great. I need this info.

Goodness knows why you need this info, since there are enough threads in the Org Monastery and Backroom where the info was given in great detail. You know, those threads where you received warning points and suspensions for anti-Islamic flaming. Ask Banquo (that mod whom you wanted disciplined for warning you) to point you to some suitably academic threads. I don't believe the Backroom is searchable by us ordinary denizens, but I'm sure TosaInu can find you that thread where you called Mohammed an animal if you told him it's for research purposes.

Thanks,
Vuk

No need.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Goodness knows why you need this info, since there are enough threads in the Org Monastery and Backroom where the info was given in great detail. You know, those threads where you received warning points and suspensions for anti-Islamic flaming. Ask Banquo (that mod whom you wanted disciplined for warning you) to point you to some suitably academic threads. I don't believe the Backroom is searchable by us ordinary denizens, but I'm sure TosaInu can find you that thread where you called Mohammed an animal if you told him it's for research purposes.

This is valuable information, my friend. Thank you, thank you so much.

First of all, I am from MASS. That is not exactly deep-south. You are only trying to do one thing, that is justify islam.
I told you, I am not getting in on the discussion, but mearly posting what I know to show that it is impossible to take what you say as fact till you source it. Source yours and I will believe it.

I read about Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī many years ago when I was studying Medieval History at my Uni so I could get a teaching degree. I have been teaching history for years my dear friend. Who is uneducated?

Vuk

Vuk, in the western world where we can proudly say that we have freedom of religion Islam does not need to be justified.

I know you want to moderate this discussion, not take part, but if that was the case you should not have outright called my sourced facts 'BS'. Also I would trust you to moderate a discussion on Islam less than I would trust a fly to guard a pile of shite.

Your word is not a source. Certainly not on Islam. I have posted what I know and I have backed it up. Return to your 'moderation'.