Reality Traits & Supply

[King Kong]

Hi First O'Neill,

That's nice to hear! And I greatly appreciate the help and support from some restless people here! I think you know who I mean
Maybe I should give up the one-man army and we could make a SS team here at some time.
However, I think it shouldn't be too hard to fix the problems with the reality traits...

[Shaba Wangy]

I just gotta say I love this. Its so much batter than punishing you with some inane money script. Kudos to KK for including it.

[Byg]

Hopefully this post brings my replies up to date. Sorry if I missed anyone.
Firstly though, anyone wanting to remove these traits can do so using quarks removal thing posted on this thread earlier so no one who doesn't fancy these traits need be concerned.

There's nothing wrong with those of us who don't like this method of supplies. I like the idea of a supply train, but I don't really enjoy this method of it.

I hope no one is saying there is anything wrong with you. Some like the game harder and complicated others dont.

whats done is done sadly.


what we need is a bloody options for the extra features etc.

almost lost a campaign cause of this..

I refer you to quarks file, but most people who tried these traits before SS4 and have had longer to try them seem to have grown to love them.

i still like it though, just the traits confuse me, ive got a general thats one 6 heroic battles, and 5 other battles, yet ive got these traits that bring the stars too 1.

poor guy hasnt even got an son yet.




No i lose games time to time, i was just disgruntled till i learned why, it was a mod, thats all

i found it somewhat amusing, that i can see the enemy armies go through my territorys, yet i coudlnt do anythng to stop it, that was funny, in a sort of meglominical way.

when ever i lose etc, i always find how, why etc, when my armies coudlnt move, i thought it was a big big bug, then i learned about the reason.

My aim is to stop people chasing after stars. try to go for major victories instead. You get these awarded for beating an army greater than your own and it counts these battles for you. I believe getting general stars for winning is wrong. Why do we need a better army if we have just won a battle? Really, if you think about it, we should get stars for losing battles to help us out.

The movement thing isn't directly to do with my traits. A few peoples mods are reducing movement and together I think they are making you immobile. Personally I like that feature.

a way to improve supply traits, hey byg is it possoble to
do resupply by a merchants

Hi, I tried, but to no avail.

I don't mind it to much so far. The only thing thats irked me is that my Russian General got ill from campaigning in the winter.. the winter.. The russians are famous for their winter tactics. Did he forget to wear his coat?

Nothing to do with reality traits I'm afraid. Though I had planned to do that, now I don't need to.

have to say im lovin all the new reality and supply traits apart from one the reputation destroyed trait which happens when u r sieged. because of the unpredictable AI u never know when u r gonna be sieged so whats the alternative, to leave an army closeby in the field? but then this leads to supply probs. this trait seems to be more of an annoyance than a challenge

how are other people dealing with this problem?

Right. What I do is to defend borders with forts. If the enemy get past them then attack the beieging enemy army with any number of units from outside your settlement. That way you get a field battle and the AI will stand a chance of defeating you. (AI is useless when you sally out)

Some of these traits are absolutely worthless and add nothing but annoyance to the game. Not sure what you guys were thinking.

Worthless traits:

'Ovcon'

'Dishonorable - makes no sense. No one likes this.

'Severely wounded'

There is no ovcon trait in the game that you will see. You will see "over confident"
I assume you are reading the file rather than seeing that in the game.

[Tony83]

I hope no one is saying there is anything wrong with you. Some like the game harder and complicated others dont.

Hehe - I guess that I have to include myself amongst those who like an easier life, and invariably play on M/M (pauses to acknowledge the withering glances of the VH/VH brigade ).

I know that I can over-write the appropriate file using Quark's excellent fix, but if I ever did succumb to my macho side and wanted to dip my toes into the full-blown traits and supply stuff again I'd have to go back and swap the files back again.

Now, I'm not the most technically minded of people and if I started doing that, eventually, I'd do something wrong and mess the whole thing up. So, I was wondering if there was any way that the mods included in SS 4.0, that "hit" the player, could be triggered by the difficulty level selected.

I should expect that anyone playing on H/H or VH/VH would be likely to want to have them, while those of us playing on Easy and Medium would probably be happier without. Furthermore, maybe the mods could be triggered by the campaign difficulty only, so that those who like an easier campaign but enjoy harder battles would be catered for as well.

[Byg]

I would say you are right Tony. To tell the truth I was a bit suprised that people played m/m in stainless steel as I always figured it for a tough game and that it would attract all the vh/vh players - hence me offering my traits to kk. I understand DLV has these traits too now.

SS is probably great in m/m too though, Im sure. I don't know if traits can be brought in by selecting a different difficulty, but you can always patch them in via an installer later. Like the one we used in ss3.2.

I will be making one for grim reality 3 fairly soon and it should come with an installer and uninstaller

There you go. Best of both worlds

[messenger42]

Byg!

How do I resuppy the general so he can move again to another friendly city to get resupply, if a general ran out of supply is there a way to save him to move again or he's just have to stand there and rotten to death.

[Tony83]

I would say you are right Tony. To tell the truth I was a bit suprised that people played m/m in stainless steel as I always figured it for a tough game and that it would attract all the vh/vh players - hence me offering my traits to kk. I understand DLV has these traits too now.

SS is probably great in m/m too though, Im sure. I don't know if traits can be brought in by selecting a different difficulty, but you can always patch them in via an installer later. Like the one we used in ss3.2.

I will be making one for grim reality 3 fairly soon and it should come with an installer and uninstaller

There you go. Best of both worlds

Cheers mate, as Bill and Ted would say "That is most excellent dude!"

Hmmm. I guess SS is harder than vanilla but I didn't find 3.2 that onerous on M/M and it was well worth the extra effort just to see all those gorgeous banners, skins and textures on the battlefield.

[Edi Birsan]

The BYG traits for supply/forage is a work around to introduce via the character traits function of the game, a concept of supply that really belongs in the more substantial framework of the formation of armies/forces. In that, it is an admirable and innovative approach.
I just don't think that the traits aspect is the really appropriate place for it.

I also have a substantial problem accepting the affects of the traits as relative to the concept of reality that it desires to portray. When non industrial armies run out of supplies the more appropriate description of the affect is not that they slow down to a crawl, but that they simply shrink and die off. Looking at retreating armies where they have lost their baggage train you actually see an increase at times in their speed over a campaign as their numbers greatly decrease.

Taken as a reality check, when Napoleon's army of 80,000 or so left Moscow in the winter they actually made reasonable time back to their starting point but lost 90 per cent of their forces.

Likewise when Alexander the Great made his final death march in the deserts along the Persian-Indian Coast it was not the speed he lost but the men.

Therefore I would argue that a speed reduction of less than 50% is unrealistic.

What happens in the game is that typically long ranged campaigns such as Crusades become impossible and that the cycle of reduction in supply vs movement makes recourse impossible. For example I had an army run out of supplies in my own country and become frozen unable to move half way between Bruge and Paris. Not exactly the place known for armies starving to death.

So again I applaud BYG supply effort but feel he should tone down the movement aspects and instead apply some of the desertion aspects that you see in Crusades that do not advance towards their targets as a better work around to introduce supply in the game.

[Tony83]

@ Edi Birsan

That is actually an excellent point. I've long thought that the entire aspect of unit attrition has never been addressed realistically in the TW series. I think that it would be fair to say that up until the 20th Century or so, armies lost far more men to disease and desertion than they ever did in battle, even on home territory.

If there is anything that is unrealistic in TW games, it is the ability to recruit a unit in Turn 1 and still have it at full strength at the end of the game, if it's tucked away somewhere and not used.

So, if we wanted to simulate this attrition, instead of hitting the generals with traits that make them more of a liability than asset, why not move the whole issue to manipulating unit strength.

It could work something like this:

Units would have a Basic Attrition Rate (BAR)of 5% (for arguments sake).

The BAR would be applied to every unit, wherever it is, every turn.

The BAR percentage would automatically increase, for example, when units are in enemy territory on campaign, or when unaccompanied by a general officer.

The BAR percentage would automatically decrease, for example, when units are doing garrison duty in a city, town or fort.

Generals would influence the BAR percentage, both positively and negatively, via a traits system.

I'm no modder so I've no idea how this could be implemented, but the game can handle the concept of unit attrition, as it applies it during plagues and sieges, so the basic mechanics must be there somewhere.

A system like this could be elegantly simple in use and, with appropriate tweaking, made to produce realistic results.

[Caesar Clivus]

@ Edi Birsan

That is actually an excellent point. I've long thought that the entire aspect of unit attrition has never been addressed realistically in the TW series. I think that it would be fair to say that up until the 20th Century or so, armies lost far more men to disease and desertion than they ever did in battle, even on home territory.

If there is anything that is unrealistic in TW games, it is the ability to recruit a unit in Turn 1 and still have it at full strength at the end of the game, if it's tucked away somewhere and not used.

So, if we wanted to simulate this attrition, instead of hitting the generals with traits that make them more of a liability than asset, why not move the whole issue to manipulating unit strength.

It could work something like this:

Units would have a Basic Attrition Rate (BAR)of 5% (for arguments sake).

The BAR would be applied to every unit, wherever it is, every turn.

The BAR percentage would automatically increase, for example, when units are in enemy territory on campaign, or when unaccompanied by a general officer.

The BAR percentage would automatically decrease, for example, when units are doing garrison duty in a city, town or fort.

Generals would influence the BAR percentage, both positively and negatively, via a traits system.

I'm no modder so I've no idea how this could be implemented, but the game can handle the concept of unit attrition, as it applies it during plagues and sieges, so the basic mechanics must be there somewhere.

A system like this could be elegantly simple in use and, with appropriate tweaking, made to produce realistic results.

Interesting idea Tony

[Withnail]

Hi everyone, new here, just thought id throw my tuppence worth in.....

Only started playing SS4 last night and got to say im loving it, however i got completelt blind sided by the realistic foraging trait, my own fault for not researching the mod fully......

Got my just desserts last night though when my heroic crusade ground to a complete halt in northern Italy. My army got bogged down with piddling little units of HRE and Milan blocking the route through, which led my army being blocked in one territory without enough food, before finally all my units deserted leaving three generals stuck in a field starving to death, ha! i thought, what a way to go....

Anyway i was a bit peeved at the time, but ive been reading through all the info in this thread and have come to appreciate what a great idea it is, and if you prepare properly (with supply ships and the like, about which i knew nothing last night, doh!) it introduces a proper roleplaying element to the game that you dont have to 'pretend' to do yourself.....

....in short i love it!

Well done on the mod by the way, all the hard work is much appreciated over here.

[lordklamath]

Could somebody maybe post the character traits file minus the byg traits based on hot fix 3 or maybe link me to a place that tells you how to edit (I've searched around but haven't found anything).

Again great work on the mod but I don't really like the byg traits (as neat as it is.... really screws up factions in mixed religious areas).

[Byg]

The BYG traits for supply/forage is a work around to introduce via the character traits function of the game, a concept of supply that really belongs in the more substantial framework of the formation of armies/forces. In that, it is an admirable and innovative approach.
I just don't think that the traits aspect is the really appropriate place for it.

I also have a substantial problem accepting the affects of the traits as relative to the concept of reality that it desires to portray. When non industrial armies run out of supplies the more appropriate description of the affect is not that they slow down to a crawl, but that they simply shrink and die off. Looking at retreating armies where they have lost their baggage train you actually see an increase at times in their speed over a campaign as their numbers greatly decrease.

Taken as a reality check, when Napoleon's army of 80,000 or so left Moscow in the winter they actually made reasonable time back to their starting point but lost 90 per cent of their forces.

Likewise when Alexander the Great made his final death march in the deserts along the Persian-Indian Coast it was not the speed he lost but the men.

Therefore I would argue that a speed reduction of less than 50% is unrealistic.

What happens in the game is that typically long ranged campaigns such as Crusades become impossible and that the cycle of reduction in supply vs movement makes recourse impossible. For example I had an army run out of supplies in my own country and become frozen unable to move half way between Bruge and Paris. Not exactly the place known for armies starving to death.

So again I applaud BYG supply effort but feel he should tone down the movement aspects and instead apply some of the desertion aspects that you see in Crusades that do not advance towards their targets as a better work around to introduce supply in the game.

As mentioned previously, the movement reduction was not supposed to be total. This was an error, which may be due to different movement rates in ss4. Either way it's being corrected so dont worry about that.

As for traits not being the best place to implement supplies, traits are the only way we can implement supplies unfortunately and we have to accept that there are limits to modding. I wanted gradual desertion but it was not possible, so I thought about how to represent the same effect. The answer was what I did, I made an army less capable of fighting.
It is not possible to use crusade desertion on other armies. Would that it were. Believe me, I looked at everything that I thought would work.

For crusades, use supply ships like King Richard did (once the movement has been corrected if not before).

@ Edi Birsan

That is actually an excellent point. I've long thought that the entire aspect of unit attrition has never been addressed realistically in the TW series. I think that it would be fair to say that up until the 20th Century or so, armies lost far more men to disease and desertion than they ever did in battle, even on home territory.

If there is anything that is unrealistic in TW games, it is the ability to recruit a unit in Turn 1 and still have it at full strength at the end of the game, if it's tucked away somewhere and not used.

So, if we wanted to simulate this attrition, instead of hitting the generals with traits that make them more of a liability than asset, why not move the whole issue to manipulating unit strength.

It could work something like this:

Units would have a Basic Attrition Rate (BAR)of 5% (for arguments sake).

The BAR would be applied to every unit, wherever it is, every turn.

The BAR percentage would automatically increase, for example, when units are in enemy territory on campaign, or when unaccompanied by a general officer.

The BAR percentage would automatically decrease, for example, when units are doing garrison duty in a city, town or fort.

Generals would influence the BAR percentage, both positively and negatively, via a traits system.

I'm no modder so I've no idea how this could be implemented, but the game can handle the concept of unit attrition, as it applies it during plagues and sieges, so the basic mechanics must be there somewhere.

A system like this could be elegantly simple in use and, with appropriate tweaking, made to produce realistic results.

May I refer you to the previous answer. Thanks for the post.

Hi everyone, new here, just thought id throw my tuppence worth in.....

Only started playing SS4 last night and got to say im loving it, however i got completelt blind sided by the realistic foraging trait, my own fault for not researching the mod fully......

Got my just desserts last night though when my heroic crusade ground to a complete halt in northern Italy. My army got bogged down with piddling little units of HRE and Milan blocking the route through, which led my army being blocked in one territory without enough food, before finally all my units deserted leaving three generals stuck in a field starving to death, ha! i thought, what a way to go....

Anyway i was a bit peeved at the time, but ive been reading through all the info in this thread and have come to appreciate what a great idea it is, and if you prepare properly (with supply ships and the like, about which i knew nothing last night, doh!) it introduces a proper roleplaying element to the game that you dont have to 'pretend' to do yourself.....

....in short i love it!

Well done on the mod by the way, all the hard work is much appreciated over here.

Oh thank you Sir.

Could somebody maybe post the character traits file minus the byg traits based on hot fix 3 or maybe link me to a place that tells you how to edit (I've searched around but haven't found anything).

Again great work on the mod but I don't really like the byg traits (as neat as it is.... really screws up factions in mixed religious areas).

Already done. Quark has posted one somewhere on this forum.
Please explain about "really screws up factions in mixed religious areas". What is happeneing? Do you mean you don't like what is supposed to happen or that there is some error?

We are modifying the traits anyway. I'm sure you all understand that a newly released mod containing many different mods will require a period of tweaking.
Thanks for your patience

[Byg]

May I request that questions about Reality Traits & Supply & Command be posted here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106060

Unless they are other modders traits.

Much appreciated. It saves me spending an evening hunting for posts when I want to work on Grim reality 3.

[lordklamath]

As mentioned previously, the movement reduction was not supposed to be total. This was an error, which may be due to different movement rates in ss4. Either way it's being corrected so dont worry about that.

As for traits not being the best place to implement supplies, traits are the only way we can implement supplies unfortunately and we have to accept that there are limits to modding. I wanted gradual desertion but it was not possible, so I thought about how to represent the same effect. The answer was what I did, I made an army less capable of fighting.
It is not possible to use crusade desertion on other armies. Would that it were. Believe me, I looked at everything that I thought would work.

For crusades, use supply ships like King Richard did (once the movement has been corrected if not before).



May I refer you to the previous answer. Thanks for the post.



Oh thank you Sir.



Already done. Quark has posted one somewhere on this forum.
Please explain about "really screws up factions in mixed religious areas". What is happeneing? Do you mean you don't like what is supposed to happen or that there is some error?

We are modifying the traits anyway. I'm sure you all understand that a newly released mod containing many different mods will require a period of tweaking.
Thanks for your patience

I mean that in areas that are mixed in religious terms (common in Byz/Middle East area) if you take an area which is less than 50% your religion you can't resupply. I have a very hard time thinking that would be the actual case. I would think force of arms (ie give me the bread or I'm going to kill your children) would work. Don't get me wrong I think the supply system is a good idea but the way it's currently implemented doesn't do it for me.

[Byg]

Well you do get supplies from them when you conquer the settlement regardless of religion, but not much (50%) top up.

You can continue to feed in that settlement (indefinitely) or outdoors in that region (for 3 turns before using supplies - like your homelands)

What you can't do there is restock the supplies you need to sustain an army on a long campaign in the field, at least not until the population comes round to your way of thinking.
This is to simulate an uncooperative population that has just been conquered by you, one that was recently conquered and would be doing all it could to inhibit you.

Supplies are not just food and would have included shoes (totally important for marching), clothes, raw materials etc. A population in panic isn't so good or efficient for providing these things.

I was discussing, today in fact, whether I could make some traits to time how long a conquered city had been in our hands, so say after 5 turns you can resupply. However, traits are necessarily linked to your generals (he would have to remain in that city all this time-very unrealistic and more awkward) and on further thinking this would seem virtually impossible to do correctly. I think the current system is the most representative of reality given the constraits of what we can mod.

Get those priests in there and get converting!

I may, in a future version allow you resupply if you do not sack or destroy a city.

[Wolfcp11]

What we really need is an installer that lets use choose different options.

Like Franceso's mod for Oblivion

[spetsnaz24]

doesn't the supply thing make a trip to Timbuktu rather impossible???

[Caesar Clivus]

The traits file you install has to be called export_descr_character_traits.txt. If it's not, rename it

[Quark]

I would not use that file as KK has done some extra tweaking, if people still want to remove this then I will upload another file. You could also use mikes1351's upload, but you will need to fix the loose authority, and castle education traits.