Mayab Tok' Palak

[KuKulzA]

Just to preface I'd like to say that I have never modded Medieval Total War2 and don't have it yet. However i would like to contribute this idea and hope to help this along in any way if there is enough interest.

I was wondering if there are any interested in-making / helping-me-make a Yucatan : Total War about the early Mayans all the way down the influx of the Iztamna, and possibly the arrival of the Spanish. The great Mayan cities intrigued, warred, and traded with each other and their politics and history are amazing. I have been, for a long time, a big fan of the Mayans.

However extensive research will have to be done to get this done accurately and yet playable. I plan for this to take place JUST in the Yucatan peninsula... to really give us an indepth dive into the politics and wars of the Mayans. However I feel there'd be plenty to work with....

But this will be a LOT of work. A lot of the old politics are hard to trace and keeping the unit types interesting, numerous, and variable will be hard, but I'm sure it can be done.

My thoughts are that there'll be some unique things we can add to gameplay as well as tweaked old ones...

Sacrifice - the sacrifice of nobles or population can appease people... but too much can incite rebellion. Of course the Mayans never took sacrifice to the level the Aztecs did but they did have blood letting and decapitation (which was more preferred than cutting out the heart). But of course stelae, cenotes, ball courts, ritual platforms and temples can all assure the population's loyalty all the same.
Economic Pressure - the old Mayan city-states sat along overland trade routes, and quetzal, jade, obsidian, salt were all very important trading items. Refusing to trade with certain cities can hurt them, and force alliances to form in one way or another.
Overlordship - a lot of Mayan cities didn't destroy each other but instead lorded over weaker ones, forming large 'coalitions' but kept the cities all intact and semi-autonomous. This might be a more appealing route for people than total conquest as that would be very taxing on resources in a land full of independent factions.
Castle vs. City - like in the regular game, however not as stark a contrast perhaps. Cities were the cultural and political centers of the Mayan kingdoms, thus while the bulk of soldiery would be 'militia' from the villages, the nobles and dynasty's own guards are very effective in their own right. However, fortifications, which didn't begin to appear in large numbers till after the Classic Era (I think) would probably train more and better actual warriors and braves but as they are controlled by a Nacom (hereditary warchief) their top units are on par with the rare and powerful "royal-guard" types that can be trained in cities.
"Guilds" - I think guilds would be replaced by professions. Having Slave-traders, Quetzal traders, Cocoa Traders, Salt Traders, Metalworkers, and Mathematicians. Each would bring a different sort of prestige to your capital and larger towns. Metalworkers could give bonuses to nobles, etc. Mathematicians can help align with the celestial bodies better and give more morale on battles which take place at certain times. And the traders would bring different kinds of wealth.
Statues/Totems - The idols and images of the gods (like war gods) can be taken into battle to give your army a large boost in morale. But if it falls then the morale sinks deeply.

those aren't all my ideas and research-in-progress but if there's interest please, input and suggestions!

we need...
- researchers
- good skinners
- a mapper
- coder(s)

EDIT: we got a map!

[Vorge]

Deffinatelly like the idea. Wish I could help you out, but I'm working on another mod at the moment. My tip would be to expand way outside of the Yucatan. Focus on Central and South America, some like the northern parts of south america and the Central America. With some Caribean islands. Hope you can get this worked out

[KuKulzA]

i may end up doing that only because there needs to be more variety... but the Yucatan is THE focus.... perhaps from the edge of the Aztec empire to the edge of the Incas and the Caribbean. I feel that Aztecs and Incas are too played out and that the goings on in the Yucatan and Carribean are often overlooked. I mean dynasties rose and fell in the Yucatan and the Caribs were on a path of conquest in the Carribean... just because these people were not as unified as the Aztecs or Incas does not mean they lacked in politics and culture ya know

thanks, I will think on it.

[Vorge]

Also with this mod it would seem fitting that a mapper would be the first thing required. Skins/Models could be done before the map, but the map is what will most likely grab people's attention. You could have beutiful units but if your map doesn't play well expect less attention. I've seen a couple people talking about something like this before and you may want to talk to them about it. It was in another post in this forum. Not sure where I saw it. Good luck mate

[KuKulzA]

very true...
I am finding that the greatest problem (right now in planning) is factions... if confined to the Yucatan there'd be factions aplenty. But if Central America, Cuba, and a bit of Columbia are included.... that means we must include Chibchas, Lencas, Miskitus, Arawaks, and Caribs.... just to name a few. And the Miskitus are a combination of local natives, escaped Africans, etc. that created this new 'tribe' in the 1600s. Info on tribes before the Miskitus are vague at best. Lencas, they are hard to define as a civilization with permanent settlements able to wage war and diplomacy. Arawak and Carib villages are not mapped out, we're going to have to make up a lot of stuff if we include the Carribean Isles. Chibchas (Muiscas) were a sort of civilization, very populous, and between the Incas to the south and Aztecs to the northwest... they lived in what is now Columbia and Panama. Descriptions on them differ and there isn't as much readily available info on them.
However sticking with just the Yucatan Peninsula risks potential monotony.
The inclusion of the other tribal groups isn't out of the question, even if we stick with JUST the Yucatan. In terms of mercenaries... Caribs were great navigators of the Caribbean and Chibchas traveled up the Panamanian isthmus... Toltecs and Itzamna traveled into the Yucatan greatly affecting the culture....

i have 2 VERY good maps of cities in the Classic and Post-Classic Eras of the Mayan civilization... however I still need to find the names of the most prominent kingdoms/dynasties and jot down ALL the cities and towns and give them regions with names... that in itself can take a long time considering my busy schedule...

now all I need is to decide on the scale and find someone who can heightmap! easier said than done
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Vorge if you don't mind me asking, what project are you involved in at the moment?
I'm new to the whole Total War modding community so I just want to know who's who

[Vorge]

Im working on The Crescent and The Cross. At the TW:Mod Squad, we haven't released much info yet Factions are tough. My tip would be to look around the forums a bit. Search for The Eagle and The Lake:Total War. I mapped for them before my computer crash. We had a nice faction list. Also check out Inca:Total War for Rome. Both should help you get a good idea of where to start

[KuKulzA]

cool thanks!
I have checked out those two suggested mods

as for landscape I think will stick with just the Yucatan. It'll be less work and really let me focus on the Mayans' wars, economics, and politics, as well as their cultures and peoples. I will research map making, and if it turns out too hard, I guess i will try to find someone who can do it.

Thanks for all your help so far Vorge!

[Vorge]

Alright. For mapping you should check these two tutorials out.

Myddraal's Essentials
BDH's Tutorial

Hopefully those can help you get a hang on mapping. Its really pretty easy once you get used to working with the files. Hope you can get a team going The Yucatan should be fun. Good luck with it. Tell me if you need help mapping, I can help you with some of the basics and common bugs

Vorge

[big_feef]

I don't have much time to do dedicated modding; but I grew up and still live in the Yucatan Peninsula (Bacalar, Quintana Roo, Mexico). If you need info, I'm your man; I can probably get you any info you'd need.

[KuKulzA]

Alright. For mapping you should check these two tutorials out.

Myddraal's Essentials
BDH's Tutorial

Hopefully those can help you get a hang on mapping. Its really pretty easy once you get used to working with the files. Hope you can get a team going The Yucatan should be fun. Good luck with it. Tell me if you need help mapping, I can help you with some of the basics and common bugs

Vorge

Alright, I'll check those out and see how I do!

I don't have much time to do dedicated modding; but I grew up and still live in the Yucatan Peninsula (Bacalar, Quintana Roo, Mexico). If you need info, I'm your man; I can probably get you any info you'd need.

Thank you so much, I will probably have questions coming very soon!

[KuKulzA]

remember this big_feef???

I don't have much time to do dedicated modding; but I grew up and still live in the Yucatan Peninsula (Bacalar, Quintana Roo, Mexico). If you need info, I'm your man; I can probably get you any info you'd need.

now I ask for the favor...

can you help find the factions' capitol city-glyphs?
I want to try to use the city-glyphs of their capitols for the factions, which is a pretty good way to depict them... but if we cannot find them we'll need to make up designs, something to symbolize them. Thanks!

this is what I got so far

[KuKulzA]

thanks monkeyman...
I think that symbol fo rthe Mam will be good, I'll add that to my collection of picture for symbols...
as for the Izapa one, we'll have to simplify it a bit but that looks good as well...

EDIT: what is the glyph for 'tree'?

After faction symbols, we need to plan out cultural groups, and map out the entire thing on a map with the cultural groups, the factions' starting regions, mercenary pools, local levies, and resources... as well as wonders
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for broad cultural groups I was thinking this:
Mexicanized - Itza, Cotzumalguapa, (Toltecs), (Zapotecs)
Yucatecan - Kokom, Atah Ajawil
Puuk - Xiu
Chenes - Chenes Maya
Rio Bec - Rio Bec Maya
Cholan - Putun Maya, K'antu', Xukpi, Saal, Kaan, Pa'Chan, Mutul, B'aakal, Petexbatun, Yo'ki'ib Ajawil, Hix Witz Ajawil, (Tojolab'al), (Itza'Peten), (K'oh Ajawil), (Travesia)
Southern - Pokom*, K'iche', Kakchiquel, Mam, (Chalchuapa), (Izapan)

like I stated in the beginning I'm not experienced with modding Total War, but I think we need to tweak existing culture groups so we can use them for the Mayans to differentiate faction groups. Something like that....

*I found out that at this point in the time the Pokoman didn't exist as a group, rather both Pokoman and Pokomchi were part of the Pokom people.
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For the recruitment of troops I feel that it can be split into five types.. they are dependent on location, settlement size, and whether it is a 'castle' or a 'city'.
Elites & Nobles
Requires a higher level 'city' to recruit. However they are cream-of-the-crop or close to it, this helps to balance the fact that 'cities' can only recruit local and militia types. They do take some time to train and are very expensive however.
Professional Warriors
Trained from 'castles'. These are your main soldiery, and there's usually a good variety of them. Better or more specialized types come with the upgrading of the 'barracks-type' structure. When your economy is strong enough, recruiting pro-warriors as the mainstay of the army is a good idea.
Militia-type Soldiery
These guys are plentiful and cheap but aren't as tough as the true warriors. They are mustered from 'cities', and as the 'militia-recruiting' structure is upgraded you can field more types of milita (archers, atlatls, clubmen, etc.) that will be a little better at particular roles. Also, militia are a good emergency defense and meat shield. While real warriors are better, when defending your own lands, you can use groups of ambushing militia to wear down the enemy.
Local Levies
Every region has its tribes and every tribe has its folk who can fight. Local levies are a way to bring more variety into your army, as well as specialization. This locals know how to fight in their own lands, thus if you will be fighting in jungles, it will be good to have levies who are accustomed to jungle-warfare. However the recruitment and training of levies is limited as they aren't strictly under your settlement's influence. The Levy has two levels. The first allows you to recruit tribesmen. As relations improve and your influence spread (higher settlement-level) you can upgrade the levy allowing you to field better local warriors. They aren't quite as good as your better troops, but are in general slightly better than your militia-types.
Mercenaries
The hiring of mercenaries can be expensive, however they provide unique and excellent soldiers when you need them, provided you are in the right region. A way to be able to access mercenaries without having to travel too much (though they are somewhat widespread), is by having the 'Traveling Mercenaries' (guild) in your city. Overtime it will allow the recruitment of a wider and wider variety of mercenaries right from your cities. Of course, they can be quite expensive and not always worth the cost, but they can help cover the shortcomings of your faction's troop selection as well.

[monkeyman]

i had the same idea for a mod when medieval 2 was still young and actually had a thred made about a lot of info on this idea. my idea was to base it around 6th century AD to 8th century AD.

heres the thread

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78831

i would be glad to be a historian for this mod idea

[KuKulzA]

and I would be glad to have ya with me! We need historically minded folks to keep it right. I'm torn whether to have Post-classic or Classic, Itza invasion or all the way till Spaniards... i dunno, let's discuss!

I checked out your thread by the way... let's start with a faction list or something...

[iudas]

You could give Inca: Total War (for RTW) a look when it comes out (soon, I think). Though it focuses on the Andes, it includes Yucatan in their map. It may interest you.

[KuKulzA]

yup! I have already begun talking to them on their forum, they have some interesting things going on there and I hope I can help them out. No doubt what is discussed there can help my possible mod out a great deal

[Rex Invictus]

Very Good Idea. I realy liked those people (Sad).
As for the human sacrafice, they belived when they sacrafice themself to a God, they will become a servant of him in the otherworld, so they wasnt forced to do this, like you can see in this horrible, faked movie from Mel Gibson.

[monkeyman]

i'm happy to ecxept the historian job

i've done plenty of research on the late classical period and believe that the rise a Pacal the great would be the best starting period. as for a faction list just check out my thread again. for maps i believe that we should keep it as a small map mainly focused on the yucatan and maybe it shoul be extended to the mexicao valley

Wikipedia is a great source to use for this subject since there is so little history left behind.

[KuKulzA]

@ Rex Invictus
From what I have read, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Within their own communities, blood letting and sacrifice was more of a personal thing to show your devotion and piety to the gods. But in times of war, the opposing kingdom's royalty would be sacrificed if captured, lesser folks were often spared - but often sold into slavery. But the whole mass sacrifice thing is more of a Mexica thing, especially Aztec.
Apocalypto did two things well, good costuming, and good action.... however accurate portrayal of the mayan culture was sorta lacking despite the good points... the flags infront of the Temple were copied out of a codex and the flags weren't what Mesoamerican heralds and standards would have looked like. I didn't see any black-painted warriors... etc.etc.

@ monkeyman
I intend to keep it to the Yucatan. However here is a VERY crucial point... should we keep it to JUST the Classic Era? or extend it to the Post-Classic? to what end? Should it be from the beginning of the Classic to the Itza arrival heralding the Post-Classic? Or all the way to the Spanish arrival? Or what if we do JUST the Post-Classic?

I feel we should have both Classic and Post-Classic. The Post-classic will be prompted by the Toltec/Itza invasion and the fact that at some point, the tech-tree will not be able to cope with increased squalor levels from a overly growing population, and improved ports on the coasts will simulate a shift in the economics... thus central city-states will find it hard to cope and fall easily or get 'abandoned'.... However, surviving city-states will find themselves surrounded by weakened neighbors and be ready to take back their lands from the Toltecs....

Another reason for such a LONG span of time is that it takes a lot of time to build up. I mean most of these factions will start out as a well developed capitol city and villages in the regions around it... with 'rebel' (independent but not faction) city-states nearby. Thus it will be a long time before it can fully conquer an equally strong neighbor... most battles will be hit-and-run until more larger cities or forts are developed so that large armies can be fielded.... so a long timespan and more turns will help that be possible i think

[Vorge]

Something like 20,000 people were forced to be sacraficed when they defeated another civilization. Were talking men, women, and children. So I'm pretty sure those 20,000 people weren't just "wanting" to be sacfrificed. Also I forget what drug it was that the priests used, but the sacrificie was stoned so bad that they wouldn't even feel the pain of being cut open alive. Let alone know that they had accepted this grim fate. Woops thats Aztecs. Im so dumb.

Also. You could go with a provincial campaign. One classic and another Post-Classic. Somewhat like MTW's Early and Late. Wasn't there one more? Been so long since I've played.