PRO DEO ET REGE: Early-Era Norman Knights

[Socal_infidel]

MEDIEVAL II TOTAL WAR:
PRO DEO ET REGE
“For God and King”
EARLY-ERA NORMAN KNIGHTS

NORMAN KNIGHTS: Throughout the 11th and 12th centuries the Norman knight was possibly the most feared warrior in Western Europe. He was descended originally from the Vikings who had settled in Northern France under their leader Rollo in or around 911 at the behest of Charles the Simple and throughout the following centuries they remembered and built on their warlike reputation.

Early-Era Norman Knights
IMAGES

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Dismounted Early-Era Norman Knights

IMAGES

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Dogma75]

Nice. I love the nasal helms...

Yesterday I searched a bit through the forum and found a mod with some really nice textures.

First set of pics is here
Second here

There are a lot more. But I thought it could give you some extra inspiration...

Btw your mod is still challenging. If the AI founds out that you're weak at some points then the factions come over you like hyenas.

I really begin to hate my italian peninsular "fellow lodgers". Venice in your mod is one of the most ruthless factions I ever encountered in vanilla and any modded games I played.
I think Venice backstabbed me now 4 or 5 times in 50 turns. Everytime searching for peace after their attack. Did cost them dearly.

Genova is not much better only much more shifty.

And Hungary...Hungary is a nation which puts its flag in the wind. Going with the strongest might blocks in the game. Till now they had only war with the HRE. That was it.

[Icefrisco]

Very nice! Will these be recruitable in England too or just Sicily?

[Socal_infidel]

@Dogma75

I saw those. He does nice work. Thanks for pointing them out!

I'm still a relative newcomer to Photoshop...but hey, when I began this mod I literally had never even played another Total War game let alone modded it! I'll get there...

@arfrisco

Dunno. I thought about that. But were they still using those type of helms at the time? I was thinking of "grandfathering [that's the lawyer in me speaking]" a few units of them in at the start, but you wouldn't be able to recruit/retrain any. But I haven't researched if that was even the case...

[riconoz]

Socal_infidel, you've got some really nice pix here. However, I do have a couple of issues:

1. The early Norman knights didn't have "heater" shields (the shorter, straighter-edged at the top, shields more usually associated with the 'high medieval' period knight), mounted or dismounted. Generally, both had the long tear drop shaped "kite" shield, until the latter half of the 12th century.
There were of course variations made upon the kite shield before this, some of which were seen as early as the period of the 1st Crusade, and which eventually led to the adaptation which eventually became known as the "heater" shield, but generally the longer kite shield preserved its dominance until at least the late 1100's, and could still be seen being used by sergeants well into the 1200's.

2. A question asked by other people, which I will repeat here, is: will the Norman knight will produced by the "English" faction. As you probably know, the "English" faction during the period covered by M2TW was really Anglo-Norman/Angevin during the early middle ages (England having just been conquered by William the Bastard/the Conquerer of Normandy), and thus its army list should reflect the Anglo-Norman monarchy's origins.

3. I haven't played your mod, but I'd like to know if the Irish produce their own units, as distinct from other western European states at the time. As you're probably aware, their warfare reflected their ancient Celtic culture, which was modified by the Viking invasions, thus their army list, should ideally reflect this history.

4. Do the Brettonnese produce their own cavalry, which - like the Spanish and their own light javelin cavalry - had lighter missile cavalry capable of harrassing enemy units? William utilised these against the Saxons after he'd apparently defeated the Brettonnese (and then treated with them) not long before his invasion of England. Of course, if they're never a different faction, perhaps they could be incorporated into the game by making them specifically hireable only from Britanny.
Cheers.

[Socal_infidel]

@riconoz

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Yesterday was a busy day at work for me.

1] Yeah, you're right. I was basically waiting for someone to call me out on this before changing it! I'll give them kite shields in the next version!

2] I haven't so far given them to the English faction, as I really wanted to make an earlier version of the Sicilian Norman Knight.

If I do give them to England, at what point should they be phased out though? I guess what I may do is given William and Rufus and Robert some of the Early Norman Knights in their starting armies, but England can't recruit any more of them.

3] Not yet. Once Kingdoms is released however I will add some of the Irish units to the AOR recruitment pool. At this time, I don't think it's worth it to try to create my own new units if CA is already going to do it

4] No missile cavalry for Breton. It's definitely something to consider, though!

Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback! Sincerely appreciate it, mate!

[riconoz]

Socal_infidel, no need to apologise mate, it's hardly a life and death matter!

If anything, I owe you an apology for taking too long to reply (work & study).

1. Norman dress & armour 'code'.
I'm not sure for how long you want to keep " early Norman knights" in the game (see dates below), but as you'd expect, the Norman knight's equipment changed and evolved from the classic idea of the short-sleeved hauberk, conical helm with nasal piece, and tear-drop kite shield, to the common western-European high-medieval knight, c1300. This would probably affect your choices.
You might want to split the Normans into different stages of development. I see that you’ve made “early-era” ones, does that mean you’ll be having later ones as well?

1a Equipment Evolution
Helmet
The conical helm became increasingly replaced in the early 12thC (1220’s – 1250’s) by a forward-tilting 'Phrygian Cap' style helm (still with the nasal piece), in which the actual point at the top actually faced towards the front. There's still some debate as to what exactly it meant, but many scholars & etc agree that it prob was extra protection at the front of the helm. From the mid-12th C, the rounded helm with nasal piece increasingly dominated, with a face mask increasingly being seen in the latter 12th C, replacing the open-faced nasal-guarded helm, and which became the precursor to the Great Helm.
Shield
The tear-drop design of the kite shield became larger c1100, but retained its shape.
By the mid-12th C, the tear-drop shape had increasingly given way to a flattened (squared) top, and retained this shape until at least the 1180’s, with the shortening of the shield coming after that. It seems that the long kite shield was still identifiably a kite shield in the years immediately prior to the start of the 13thC (albeit shorter – almost a ½ way point between the Kite and the Heater), but the “Heater Shield” proper was increasingly adopted by the 1220’s onwards, with it having become the ‘standard’ knightly shield by the mid-13thC.
Armour
The arms extended all the way to the wrist c1100, and mailed mittens were commonly used by knights after the mid12thC, and definitely by the 1180’s.
Chausses arguably became apparent for the very rich/powerful in the late 11thC, with its usage being extended to even sergeants by the 1180’s.
2. Anglo-Normans
The Norman dynasty of England died out/was wiped out with the death of King Stephen in 1154. So I’d definitely suggest that you keep the English faction producing Norman Knights until then (see below for early/late). But, I’d also suggest that you keep producing them afterwards for the reasons below ….
As you’re probably aware, Henry II became first of the Angevin dynasty, but this is where it gets tricky. When the Anglo-Normans invaded Ireland c1154 (albeit at the behest of – ironically – an Irish king, Dermot McMurrough of Leinster … one of my ancestors, damn it!), they were still recognizably Normans, and the Pale they established was Anglo-Norman, not English.
Another reason to consider (early) Angevin England as being still “Norman”, or at least th England under them still capable of producing Norman knights, is that Henry’s accession was merely a dynastic change, and so the grip on power the conquerors had seized after 1066 would not have come undone – as indicated by the defeat of Matilda’s invasion (wife of Geoffrey Plantagenet of Anjou, mother of Henry II), even though it did result in the throne being promised to her son after King Stephen’s death (last of the Norman dynasty).
Additionally, there were Angevin free-booters who sailed with William the Bastard in 1066, presumably looking for land, titles and booty (especially after William advertised his adventure looking for cannon fodder to be thrown against the axes of the famed Saxon Huscarls in order offset his low numbers). Considering that these came from a region right next to Normandy, they would have had similar if not identical equipment.
Also, considering the dread with which the almost utterly ruthless Counts of Anjou were regarded by all around them bar the Normans (such as Fulk Nerra), I’d suggest that the Angevin dynasty of England would have been able to produce Norman knights, as they easily had the ferocity required.
Lastly: from what I’ve read, Norman-French was definitely spoken in England by the Anglo-Normans (or Anglicizing Normans) until the late 13thC, and even (according to a few) until the early 14th C (although I don’t know how reliable their claims are).
All of this suggests that the increasingly Anglicizing Normans definitely still saw themselves as being “Norman” in 1200, even after the Angevin takeover, with ‘going native’ afterwards taking an increasing part until the by the mid 14th C, the upper class saw themselves as being “English”, not “Norman”.
Therefore, I would suggest that you make the English faction produce “early Norman knights” until the 1120’s, and “late Norman knights” (with the rounded (+face-protected?) helm, squared kite shield, mittens, long sleeves, chausses) until approx 1200AD.
Of course, you could add an even later “Norman knight” with all having face ‘masks’, and with heater shields, if you wanted to differentiate the last Normans from before.
A good starting point for research is the Osprey Men-at-Arms series.
3. Irish Units
Fair enough. I’d wait too!
4. Breton
Just a note on them. They had superb cavalry, and behaved in almost exactly the same way as their ancient Romano-British ancestors had done in the late Roman army (strong cavalry, weaker infantry, and using feints to draw out enemies from strong positions. Apparently, they refused (or at least their cavalry did) to fight dismounted.
5. Scots
Obviously I haven’t played your mod yet (failed downloads so far), but do you have the Scots having few archers and cavalry, but with strong axe and claymore units (in addition to highlanders)?
I hope that helps! Good luck.