diplomats in the era

**Ramon Gonzales y Garcia** · July 10, 2007, 12:27 PM

I am posing the question here for the experts to answer (hopefully)
w/c would be a more appropriate diplomat model for the Romans in IBFD? the current model or a togate model?

**Black Francis** · July 10, 2007, 01:39 PM

Current model by far.

I would maybe inclined to change the colour of his "pillbox/Pannonian" hat to a cloth brown or even red.

Also, I would add Late Roman circular or square "patches" to his tunic/shirt. At the moment he is wearing a weird shirt with a black band at the bottom which I have never seen before..

Like this Ballista operator:

Red for West, blue for East? Don't forget the Romano-Britons and Gallic Rebels though....

**Samuel Adams** · July 10, 2007, 02:04 PM

hm, Late Roman dignitaries (be they senators, emperors, or just richies) were still very much attached to the idea of Rome's greatness in the golden age, i.e the defeat of hannibal, caesar and Augustus (Octavian.), etc.

So a Roman Dignitary on duty would be very much inclined, as speaking on behalf of Rome, to wear a toga as a symbol of his citizenship and official status. Travelling, however, he may look much more simple as Black Francis described, i.e. more plain clothed. It's like the British Army's Queens and King's Horse Guard units (Sorry to any Brits if I don't know the exact name of the units). They are crack military units today, doing half their time in service with a modern cavalry unit in the field (One battalion of each regiment is field, one ceremonial). Then they are put onto ceremonial status; So they wear both modern combat uniforms one day, then the dress of a Victorian era-heavy cavalryman while on official House Guard duty.

Diplomats would be much the same; They would wear the ceremonial Toga while in the halls of the King or other official of whatever nation they were hosted by. Unfortunatley I would give you the site I got this from, but it's been down for about a week.

There are numerous sources however for the Tunics (I was about to post the exact same link as BF!).

Anyways, hope it helps!

@BF: Are you a Roman Reenactor? You sure know your stuff...

**SeniorBatavianHorse** · July 10, 2007, 03:33 PM

This translation by Bury of the diplomat Priscus sheds some light on the travails of a Roman embassy:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/priscus.html

My own preference is for a non-toga Roman as is!

**Black Francis** · July 10, 2007, 04:14 PM

If I remember correctly the toga had died out by about the early third century. Even Augustus had to pass legislation forcing people to wear the toga, implying it was even then not as popular as it once was (Augustus was very morally conservative). It had become impractical but remained a token of "Romanitas".

Basically, you can equate the death of the toga with the death of the last vestiges of the Republic with Pertinax (192-193 A.D.) who had revived many "Augustan" and aristocratic senatorial traditions, even going so far as calling himself princeps senatus in imitation of Augustus (even though Pertinax was of low birth he was very much a champion of the senate). Some historians (Gibbon) have even put forward that had he remained in power we may have seen a new Republic or at least an Augustan "Principate" again.

Anyhow, who succeeded Pertinax? Septimius Severus, one of the first true unabashed "Soldier Emperors" who cared little for the Senate, and was not inclined to pander to their Republican egos by wearing a toga. From now on the simple military tunic was the clothing of choice for the new "soldier Emperors" as all Senatorial pretence was abandoned. No more togas.

Basically, there were always tunics but togas were worn in "polite" (Senatorial) society. When "polite" society dies, so do togas.

@Horton III no I am not a re-enactor. I am an Ancient History Postgraduate (writing my MA on the academic debate surrounding Constantine) and a trainee History Teacher.... plus I am a Roman Catholic, if you hadn't noticed already!

I am especially interested in Constantine's almost "fascist" adaptation, interpretation and use of Christianity, which endured throughout the Late Empire.

An all round Late Roman fanatic.

**Mylae** · July 10, 2007, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Black Francis

If I remember correctly the toga had died out by about the early third century. Even Augustus had to pass legislation forcing people to wear the toga, implying it was even then not as popular as it once was (Augustus was very morally conservative). It had become impractical but remained a token of "Romanitas".

Basically, you can equate the death of the toga with the death of the last vestiges of the Republic with Pertinax (192-193 A.D.) who had revived many "Augustan" and aristocratic senatorial traditions, even going so far as calling himself princeps senatus in imitation of Augustus (even though Pertinax was of low birth he was very much a champion of the senate). Some historians (Gibbon) have even put forward that had he remained in power we may have seen a new Republic or at least an Augustan "Principate" again.

Anyhow, who succeeded Pertinax? Septimius Severus, one of the first true unabashed "Soldier Emperors" who cared little for the Senate, and was not inclined to pander to their Republican egos by wearing a toga. From now on the simple military tunic was the clothing of choice for the new "soldier Emperors" as all Senatorial pretence was abandoned. No more togas.

Basically, there were always tunics but togas were worn in "polite" (Senatorial) society. When "polite" society dies, so do togas.

@Horton III no I am not a re-enactor. I am an Ancient History Postgraduate (writing my MA on the academic debate surrounding Constantine) and a trainee History Teacher.... plus I am a Roman Catholic, if you hadn't noticed already!

I am especially interested in Constantine's almost "fascist" adaptation, interpretation and use of Christianity, which endured throughout the Late Empire.

An all round Late Roman fanatic.

just some question, Black Francis:
1- what language you spoke (other than english)
2- did you have something written about this constantine's topic?

3- what do you think of this roman dipolmat?

the shoes are like the one shown in the ravenna mosaics on the dignitaries surrounding justinian. however, they are covered by a very long tunic, and this one not.
the cloak is of fine red brocade quilted with gold; is dressed like mosaics shows it. on the front part has a rectangular decoration of gold and precious stones, also like mosaics shows it. the furcoat cap is normal, and the face is taken from a old vanilla diplomat UI. The tunic has the typical roman decorations.

a second version of the roman diplomat has a longer tunic, like in mosaics.

sassie diplomats dressed in sassie way - like in roman mosaics of ravenna

what do you think?

**Ramon Gonzales y Garcia** · July 10, 2007, 11:17 PM

this is getting better than I expected

any ideas for Germans? for Huns? Hephthalites? Slavs? Gaels?

**Mylae** · July 11, 2007, 09:27 AM

a barbarian-style diplomat.

i'd like to see it as a frankish one for the mustaches

he has a fur cloak, a red tunic, a short dagger - i think all the barbarians will have it

**Black Francis** · July 11, 2007, 10:56 AM

Mylae, those pictures of the diplomats look great, and are perfect!
As for long or short tunic, I would go with short. The mosaic you are referring to presents the individuals in court dress, plus it is a later period.

Your other questions:

I speak English, Welsh (Cymraeg = the language of the indigenous Britons) and my Latin is very very poor. I can read/make educated guesses at Latin inscriptions and understand most of what is written but as for speaking I can only recite some prayers/ bits of the Catholic Liturgy in Latin. I am trying to improve my Latin but just don't have the time at the moment.

As for Constantine, I am simply writing a dissertation which is part of my university course. I have attended academic conferences and maybe one day I will get a paper published, but that is a looong way off.

**Mylae** · July 11, 2007, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Black Francis

Mylae, those pictures of the diplomats look great, and are perfect!
As for long or short tunic, I would go with short. The mosaic you are referring to presents the individuals in court dress, plus it is a later period.

Your other questions:

I speak English, Welsh (Cymraeg = the language of the indigenous Britons) and my Latin is very very poor. I can read/make educated guesses at Latin inscriptions and understand most of what is written but as for speaking I can only recite some prayers/ bits of the Catholic Liturgy in Latin. I am trying to improve my Latin but just don't have the time at the moment.

As for Constantine, I am simply writing a dissertation which is part of my university course. I have attended academic conferences and maybe one day I will get a paper published, but that is a looong way off.

Interesting. at this point i will like if you could - later - check misspellings and so in new buildings descriptions, as my english is sometime wrong.
About latin, i should admit that i know it a bit, bookishly, from 5 years in school. i was in a "liceo classico", and thus i get 5 years of ancient greek too, that's why i know both of them

Please, when you finished your dissertation, could you pm it to me?

so am I, used to be a member of Opus Dei

Oh my god, the devils!

(i'm not religious also because years of catholic attempts to convince me of their righteousness. i simply asked them the names of the twelve apostles and they cannot answer...)
---

next i'll do another diplomat, maybe a lakhmid one.

(edit)

Here it is, our Lakhmid polished diplomat to humbly serve his Lord

**Black Francis** · July 11, 2007, 12:29 PM

@ Ramon

Colours? You mean for the different factions. We just need to be able to differentiate between factions so whatever you feel I guess... I would say different cloak and undergarment (sleeves). Keep the tunics white.

Opus Dei! Blimey! Even I find them a bit hardcore... and I speak as an individual torn between my long term girlfriend and becoming a priest!

@ Mylae,
I was an English teacher for 1 year in South Korea so I would be happy to check descriptions if that is OK with Ramon...

About my dissertation, I need to finish it first which could be a while yet...

**Ramon Gonzales y Garcia** · July 11, 2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Black Francis

@ Ramon

Colours? You mean for the different factions. We just need to be able to differentiate between factions so whatever you feel I guess... I would say different cloak and undergarment (sleeves). Keep the tunics white.

definitely the tunics will be white, maybe the pattern could change colors, I think a red cloak would be a symbol of high rank?

Opus Dei! Blimey! Even I find them a bit hardcore... and I speak as an individual torn between my long term girlfriend and becoming a priest!

Oh my god, the devils!

which is why it is 'used to be' and not 'am'

I really like pullng that one on my Japanese friends, too; who only know of the Opus Dei from Dan Brown.
I am still officially Catholic, from my mother's side of the family I have an uncle and a first cousin who are priests, but as you can see from my 'other sig' I am very interested in the teachings of J. Krishnamurti, in the writings of Zecharia Sitchin, and in Taoism (I also practice Tai Chi Ch'uan and dabble in Taoist Internal Alchemy). So I　am an enigma even to myself

and here in Japan, people who are in church one day are in a Buddhist temple the next, and in a Shinto temple the day after that

@ Mylae,
I was an English teacher for 1 year in South Korea so I would be happy to check descriptions if that is OK with Ramon...

would be very helpful

when were u in SK?

@Mylae, sorry I didn't read about the dagger... but do you think we should have that?

Lakhmid diplomat looks doable

**Black Francis** · July 11, 2007, 01:27 PM

Ramon,

Red is generally associated with the military (it was an easy dye to mass produce), and often officers would wear completely red clothing. But TBH I don't think it matters that it is a "diplomat" wearing red as we are dealing with a very militaristic regime in the Late Roman Empire so it would have been common. Just go with whatever the faction colour is for the cloaks.

I was in S Korea from November 2002- November 2003 for your info. I lived in Inchon.

**Ramon Gonzales y Garcia** · July 11, 2007, 11:18 AM

OK, I a making a Roman diplomat based on Razors Exploratores,
next question:
should we change color of tunic? or of the cloak?
The German diplomt I have been working on also looks like the one you have, I doubt it would be good to have a sword, though

Originally Posted by Black Francis

.... plus I am a Roman Catholic

so am I, used to be a member of Opus Dei

**Mylae** · July 12, 2007, 05:51 AM

@Mylae, sorry I didn't read about the dagger... but do you think we should have that?

in fact i've added the text later

as an explanation. i guess they should have it, a "barbarian" i guess will always have a warrior nobility. a "diplomat" for them will be not a refined politician, but instead a respected chief, a leader.

Lakhmid diplomat looks doable

in fact i toon inspiration from an osprey image and two sassanid 3rd century statue of syrian nobleman (found in Hatra if i remember well).
It has a large tunic - i've made it a light violet - quilted in gold, and with a golden belt. it has a turquoise jewel ring in his right hand (just 2 pixels

) and the vest should be of fine silk. the hat is like one from an osprey illustration of a palyrean noble.