What ever happened to seperation of church and state?

[Rush Limbaugh]

Jihad camp to be built in Iowa on U.S. government land

Ok ignore the Jihad part if you like. Isnt this a clear violation of the 1st amendment?

Issue number one: The Church-State Problem

In July of 2002, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) won a long fought battle to remove a cross from the Mohave Desert public preserve, as a Federal judge ruled that it was in breach of the "establishment" clause of the Constitution.

Of the case, Peter Eliasberg, an attorney at the ACLU stated, "The federal government should not offer public land – owned collectively by people of every faith and of no faith – as a site for the advertisement and promotion of Jesus Christ, Buddha, Pope John Paul II, or any other particular religious figure. Contrary to what some believe, it is not the role of the federal government to advance Christianity or any other sectarian belief." He further stated, "The courts have consistently held that a permanent religious fixture on federal land is a violation of the U.S. Constitution."

While the ACLU feels it necessary to take action against symbols of the Christian faith, it seems they do not attribute the same set of standards to Islam.

The group that wants to use the Iowa site calls itself Muslim Youth Camps of America, Inc. (MYCA). Organizers of MYCA say they purposely chose the name so that it would resemble that of the YMCA, the well-known Christian nationwide health and fitness center. "It is not exclusively for Muslims, just like YMCA is not exclusive to Christians," states Manzoor Ali, the Chairman of MYCA. But this statement doesn't exactly jibe with some of the other statements made by the group.

At a hearing for the land proposal, the following statements were made by Mark Chaffee, the Project Director for MYCA:

"I don't know what you know about the Muslim community, but here in the United States right now it currently is encompassing 48 nationalities. So the camp has to have this immense multi-cultural focus to it and have that sort of an outreach to it. And our outreach and marketing will be heavily towards the Muslim community, because of its underserved nature."

(Concerning his colleague's statement about separate plans for boys and girls at the camp "The perception of the gender is similar to gender issues in the United States in religion…So it really just depends on which piece of the Islamic community that you are at [sic.] the moment as to that gender."

Of course, all of these statements come with caveats alluding to the group's supposedly all-inclusive nature. But then, when one reads the March 2000 edition of the Washington Report, which features a story about MYCA, one may very well get the true nature of the group. It states that Bill Aossey, Representative for MYCA, announced that the camp/convention center "has been purchased and given the name ‘Camp Heritage' to emphasize the importance for Muslim children of understanding their roots."

These statements, including the fact that the proposed site will contain of a 36-foot dome-covered prayer tower, has not fazed the ACLU. Concerning the matter, the ICLU, the Iowa branch of the ACLU (who in March of 2000 condemned a proposal by 12 legislators to require posting of the Ten Commandments in the Iowa State Senate chamber) had this to say: "There is no establishment clause violation in government permitting the building of a structure that resembles a mosque or church…we are unaware of any cases involving governmental religious displays based on the theory that certain public architecture is an endorsement of one religion over another…this is not the case in which to try that argument out…."

When the topic of the Constitutionality of this matter was brought up at the land proposal hearing, Manzoor Ali quickly chimed in and changed the subject ("No, no. I think we don't want to take much of your time.") Why? What does his group have to hide that he couldn't discuss this?

Check out the links where the actual information comes from.

[Gary88]

i dont know what the first amendment says on the matter (could you enlighten me?) but if it breaks it it can in no way be allowed

[David Deas]

I always tell people when it comes to this sort of thing, so long as wearing a particular religious symbol doesn't grant you extra governmental powers, then there is separation between church and state.

[Talbaz]

well i would have to say no to the camp because it main focus is Muslim youth but if they go i think there should be a major look at boy scout camp and such sense they been big on this where christens stuff what fair for one is fair for all but these connection to extremeist are kinda of dumb to say the least

a company that supply meat that is prepare so it ok for muslim to eat according to there religious laws?

a speech on martyrdom in Islam but they don't say what the speech was about could have been oh i don't know maybe against it or something we don't know?

over i give it a 2/10 over bad reporting

[Rush Limbaugh]

there should be a major look at boy scout camp and such sense they been big on this where christens stuff what fair for one is fai

You do realize that the boy scouts used to meet in public school gyms until the ACLU stopped them, Saying they were a religious organization and thus not permitted to use federal property. There is no way federal land given for this if you cant even have a cross on federal land in the middle of a desert.

[Talbaz]

You do realize that the boy scouts used to meet in public school gyms until the ACLU stopped them, Saying they were a religious organization and thus not permitted to use federal property. There is no way federal land given for this if you cant even have a cross on federal land in the middle of a desert.

they did when i just stop doing the boy scout thing am a eagle scout and everything and a atheists(it more of a don't as don't tell policy, mainly did cause eagle scout look awesome on any app) and last time i check they still meet in public schools around here

edit: also in your link they talk about the Girl scout camp and other that would be there neighbors that were worryed

[Vorge]

I personally don't think there is a problem with this. We have camps for christians like this yet no one speaks out against them. Its not part of the "goverment" from the looks of it. So it is a seperation of church and state. Just my thoughts.

Vorge

[morteduzionism]

Ok ignore the Jihad part if you like.

Why would you even say something like this? I just don't understand why you would even link the word "jihad" with this camp in the first place. That sounds like the scare tactics used by Republicans(eventhough you say you're not one)

well i would have to say no to the camp because it main focus is Muslim youth

So eventhough the man is quoted as saying, "It is not exclusively for Muslims, just like YMCA is not exclusive to Christians," states Manzoor Ali, the Chairman of MYCA. You still have a problem with it?

[Kiljan Arslan]

One question dose the Federal goverment lease land for other groups to have camps, like christians, girl scouts and boy scouts, and if boy scouts remember boy scouts don't allow athiests to join.

[JP226]

The whole separation btwn church and state thing descends from not wanting religion being another wing of the governmnet. As in the UK for instance. This nonsense as far as no prayer in school and not teaching religion is a perversion of that fact.

I think today it is completely and utterly blown way outta proportion today.

[Kiljan Arslan]

No mandated prayer in school that dosn't mean you yourself can't pray.

[Rush Limbaugh]

they did when i just stop doing the boy scout thing am a eagle scout and everything and a atheists(it more of a don't as don't tell policy, mainly did cause eagle scout look awesome on any app) and last time i check they still meet in public schools around here

Philly boots Boy Scouts

Posted: June 5, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

On Thursday, the Philadelphia City Council voted 16 to 1 to eject the Boy Scouts from a headquarters building they've been using since 1928. The agreement 79 years ago was that the Scouts' Cradle of Liberty Council could lease the building at a low cost "in perpetuity." Now, the city is bringing its partnership with the Boy Scouts to an end.

What is it that the Philadelphia City Council is so upset about? Well, it goes like this: "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." That's the Scout Oath, which every Scout knows by heart and strives to live by.

Maybe this is why it still goes on bye you.

BOY SCOUTS FIGHT BACK

[Talbaz]

Personally if they want to make decision banning people from scout for the religious believe i say they lost what they stood for and should be throw off the land

Boy Scouts are suppose to be a group that help young men grow to be adults and this crap about gay and stuff is a bit over broad am sure they could be aloud in if they had separate sleeping conditions to avoid sexual abuse i mean they already do that in the Venture Scouts with the males/females why be moron like this unless your a religious organization

[Talbaz]

The whole separation btwn church and state thing descends from not wanting religion being another wing of the governmnet. As in the UK for instance. This nonsense as far as no prayer in school and not teaching religion is a perversion of that fact.

I think today it is completely and utterly blown way outta proportion today.

there shouldn't be mandatory prayer in school if you want to pray so be do what you want

there should not be any class in school teaching religion cause it would be dogma unless it just a history class that give you all the religion and was a overview of what that stood for and how they differ which is already there

also i think the under god crap in the pledge need to go we defeat those red russians it time to return the pledge to what it was didn't the under god just have it 50th aniversity or something?

[JP226]

That's besides the point, the whole issue is blown outa proportion. It comes from stupid ****ing *******s trying to make a fool... err name for themselves and feeling good about themselves to make these stupid descisions. Just like that stupid ass judge in the Anna Nicole case.

The point is, the US is not to have a wing of it's government as the Church. The president can't be the head of some religion while he holds office.

[JP226]

there shouldn't be mandatory prayer in school if you want to pray so be do what you want

there should not be any class in school teaching religion cause it would be dogma unless it just a history class that give you all the religion and was a overview of what that stood for and how they differ which is already there

also i think the under god crap in the pledge need to go we defeat those red russians it time to return the pledge to what it was didn't the under god just have it 50th aniversity or something?

where did I say their should or shouldn't be mandatory prayer in school? I said this whole stupid ass overreation as far as religion goes is not what was intended.

But if schools want to pray in the south, let them pray in the south. If the 10 commandments want to be displayed at an Alabama court house, let it be displayed there. It's hilarious that these stupid *******s are so up in arms and believe int h seperation of church and state as absolutes and yet the President has always sworn in on a bible.

[Kiljan Arslan]

where did I say their should or shouldn't be mandatory prayer in school? I said this whole stupid ass overreation as far as religion goes is not what was intended.

But if schools want to pray in the south, let them pray in the south. If the 10 commandments want to be displayed at an Alabama court house, let it be displayed there. It's hilarious that these stupid *******s are so up in arms and believe int h seperation of church and state as absolutes and yet the President has always sworn in on a bible.

Uh the 10 commandments thing in front of the Alabama supreme court was only supported by the guy that installed it, he did it unilaterally with out support of the other justices.

Oh and Rush that was not the ACLU who barred the scouts from using the philly Public schools it was the Philly City Council. Boy scouts could still sue schools when I was one.

Just admidt it rush you have a phobia of islam. Like I have of medium to large dogs.

[Talbaz]

If the 10 commandments want to be displayed at an Alabama court house, let it be displayed there.

No Justice system=part of government so no

[Rush Limbaugh]

Oh and Rush that was not the ACLU who barred the scouts from using the philly Public schools it was the Philly City Council.

Based on cases brought by the ACLU.

Just admidt it rush you have a phobia of islam.

No way. I want equal treatment before the law one way or the other. I agree with JP226 that this whole thing is nonsense.

Uh the 10 commandments thing in front of the Alabama supreme court was only supported by the guy that installed it, he did it unilaterally with out support of the other justices.

What has that got to do with whether or not its fitting to be there. Its in the Supreme Court of the United States


with Moses holding them.

And here they are again

The Ten Commandments between “The Majesty of the Law” (to the left) and “The Power of Government” (to the right) above the Bench - Inner Courtroom of the U.S. Supreme Court
And yet again


How is it that there is a federal church in Washington as far as i know. I forget its name. If there is this so called seperation?

Oh well one didnt work.

[Talbaz]

those should be removed the commandments not the posts