Any tips on winning siege battles with low losses?

[sumaznguy]

RIght now playing as Romans. I use mostly infantry and some skirmishers.

When I am outside the gates I can do decent(only if the enemy has wooden walls or crappier). I just pelt the defenders with my hastiti, and other units. I can achieve like 30-50% casualties to enemy while only having like 0-5% for my side.


The enemy never leaves the city walls so that makes my strat really easy to use.

But then when I enter, that's when i start taking massive casaulties. The city spaces are too cramped so my massive infantry army gets all clogged up trying to enter(both entering gates and entering city). So my casaulties will jump up to like 20-40% by the time I win the battle. This annoys me because if I used auto resolve I would have lost a lot less men(but I like doing the battles myself, its fun to watch the slaughter).


And then when the enemies get real walls with towers all over the place and the hot oil. My losses jump up dramatically.


Should I just maintain siege and let them sally forth against me instead?

[sgtgoody]

Create multiple entry points so you can flank the defenders. Bring guys down side streets so that not everyone is stacked up trying to fight on a narrow front. Roman infantry can carve up anyone will few losses if you can hit from multiple angles.

[Quinctius Cincinnatus]

I'd say archers. I fire with 4-5 archer troops to then enemy, which is waiting for the infantry to enter city. The enemy runs away then, fearing to have even more losses due to the arrows.
This is the moment that I enter the town in full-speed, and really storming to the central plaza [the town square]. Normally the fight is tough here (as they won't run when on the plaza), but then I re-call my archers, which do most of killing.
Always use all of your arrows, all of your pila, all of your spears. Prefer distant-combat rather than hand to hand.
@sgtgoody: this is indeed also a very effective tactic. This will cause a quick flee within the enemy.
Quinctius,
RTR: PR.

[Solaris]

So you're talking specifically about sieges for stone walls and higher?

If so, my preferred tactic is to starve the besieged forces, making them either surrender or sally. Then you can fight in an open battle - problem solved.

[Juvenal]

I have tried many approaches to assaulting stone walls, and have now settled on a system that seems to me the most efficient and cost-effective.

Step 1: Deployment
Firstly, I don't bother with rams or saps. The reason for this is that when I use them I generally get caught trying to rush through the breach or gate. Troops in this situation suffer heavy casualties, both from enemies on the walls and from enemies defending the breach or gate - because they are formed and my men are disordered.

I always attack and capture the walls. The rest of the army forms two or more flying columns ready to rush through enemy gate houses as soon as they are captured.

Capturing walls is best done with ladders, because ladders deploy quickly and you can get full units on the wall often before the enemy can react. I use siege towers to distract the enemy on the walls from my main attacks via ladder.

It is vital to survey the walls when deploying in order to find the best places to target with your ladders. There are always some places that will face less fire from enemy towers - you need at least two such places for your ladder men - preferably on opposite sides of the city. Use some towers in between to prevent the enemy concentrating all their wall defenders against your ladders.

Step 2: Capture the walls and gatehouses
The wall assault troops need to be the best you can get - they should be heavy sword infantry for fighting, plus peltasts for running round the walls and capturing towers.

As soon as the ladders look like they are going to succeed, I abandon the siege towers and run their troops in behind the ladders. If the units on the ladders get into trouble, then I keep some of the siege towers going so that I can get a pincer on the enemies attacking them.

Step 3: Rush to the Plaza
Once the required gatehouses are captured, my flying columns make a run for the enemy plaza. If possible I try to block the retreat of enemy troops from the walls in the narrow streets. I try to get troops to every entrance to the plaza so that the defenders can be flanked when I attack.

I form battle lines around the plaza - but not on it (this would precipitate an attack from the enemies defending the plaza - again this generally finds my troops not properly deployed and things go badly for them).

Step 4: Engage the enemy
Having formed my lines - I advance a line cautiously onto the plaza. This prompts the plaza defenders to attack it.

Step 5: Stab them in the back
Once they are engaged, I rush troops (especially archers and javelins - even cavalry) around their flank to gain their rear. The only way to defeat troops quickly on the plaza is with missiles in the back.

With the enemy well reduced, I can now pile in with the remainder of my infantry and watch the enemy do their Custer's Last Stand impression.

Job Done...

PS. Large and Epic stone walls are too high for ladders - so I have to use siege towers for my main assault, this time I advance all the towers because I need to overwhelm the defenders on the walls quickly to compensate for the extra time needed to deploy units from siege towers.

[sumaznguy]

So you're talking specifically about sieges for stone walls and higher?

If so, my preferred tactic is to starve the besieged forces, making them either surrender or sally. Then you can fight in an open battle - problem solved.

I have trouble with all sieges. stone walls and higher make it even more difficult.


And I always run out of ranged ammo before I even enter the city.


How do I capture towers?

[pannonian]

There's always the cheese tactic of loading up a full stack of the most powerful infantry you have, then autoresolving. This also gives you a shortcut to silver and gold chevron units. Always make sure your most powerful and/or retrainable units are at the front of the stack since they take most of the casualties, although experience is spread throughout the army AFAIK.

[morteduzionism]

1. Wait until there is 1 turn left before you assault
2. Lead assaults with Heavy Infantry(Principes)
3. When assaulting...big walls...use Principes to clear the towers: have them move around the walls to neutralize towers otherwise they'll be able to fire on your infantry in the city
4. Use multiple entry points
5. Push defenders away from the entrance/walls with missile units: doesnt work on big stone walls
6. kill enemy general as fast as possible-get your general in the city(safety first) and have him kill their general...this will lower the morale of units near the gates
7. repeatedly lay siege to a city. lay siege wait out the turns...lift siege when there is 1 turn left...repeat...this is a way to slowly weaken the garrison
8. switch off units-when assaulting a breach keep checking the stamina of your unit...when they get tired...pull them out...attack with fresh unit
9. on big stone walls...sap 'em...try to sap the wall right under where they have a lot of defenders...kill two birds one stone
10. autoresolve-sometimes, depending on the size of the garrison, if you wait out the siege it autoresolves itself and you get the city without suffering any losses-what I mean is never assault the city, just end the turn when there is one turn left on the siege...and if the garrison is not too big you'll just get the city.

[Maximus Lazero]

My strategy is simple: DO NOT FIGHT SIEGE BATTLES. NEVER ASSAULT A CITY UNLESS FORCED TO (read: the enemy sallies)

Why not assault the city directly? Here's why:

1. Against the best stone walls, there's rarely an entry point on the walls devoid of arrows...

2. My troops do the craziest things during sieges, ranging from trying to run THROUGH the enemy to get to a flanking position, to simply running into a building >_>

3. Time consuming.

4. Due to the aforementioned stupidity and arrows, I occasionally find the casualties to be too great.


My main strategy is to simply besiege a city with a full stack, and let the enemy come and try and relieve them. Although I'll then face to armies coming from different (although sometimes similar) directions, I have yet to lose, even if I'm nearly twice outnumbered. I destroy two armies, and I get the city without having to fight in the streets. Yes, sometimes the casualties are heavy, and I then have to spend a lot of time retraining etc., but I still think that killing two armies and capturing a city is a nice trade for half my stack (mostly, that's not the case).



The only time I'll fight a siege battle is if the enemy sallies forth in an effort to save themselves, in which case I follow this simple strategy:
1. Build 4 rams (wooden walls) or siege towers (stone)
2. When the enemy sallies forth, array my forces as FAR BACK from the gates as possible.
3. If I have siege towers, put some infantry on them with Fire at Will, so that some of the tower missiles might hit the approaching enemy.
4. When the enemy engages, use cavalry to envelope.
5. The best case would be that the enemy is caught outside the walls and destroyed. Often, however, several units escape into the city, where they will rally at the square, and come out again.
6a. In a wooden city, as the enemy flees, I just send troops after them so that they can capture the gate, since there's no way to stop the towers without ballista (which I avoid using) and the gates can't hurt me. Or, I put a unit or two on ramming duty.
6b. Against stone walls, I put a unit on a tower and send them around to a point on the walls that has little/no tower cover. While they scale the walls, I array the rest of my army around the main gate so that any enemy that try and come out will be cut off and destroyed.
7. Once my wall units have captured the gate and necessary towers, I move my army in. The best way to move units in is to send one in at a time, with short intervals between. (such as, send a unit of Hastati in, wait a few seconds, then send another). This generally avoids traffic jams while keeping the incoming men steady.
8. Move my army around the city so I can hit the enemy in the town square from multiple angles. By this point, the enemy is so weakened that they keep charging at my men, only to route several yards away. Some may actually hit the line, but they route almost immediately.
9. Make sure all my men are in position.
10. Crush the enemy.

An alternative is that, should all the enemy route, I simply end the battle, so I avoid losing men. After all, the enemy in the city have nowhere to run, so that army disappears anyway ^_^

[CiusFortius]

Against the AI they will often send relief forces when you siege a city. This helps as the city garrison comes out to help the relief, even if the relief is tiny and going to loose anyways. I then make sure that I kill all the defenders of the city if possible as then you never fight on the walls and streets.

This works too if you see an army just outside an enemy city. Attack the army directly to get the enemy to come support. Kill as many as you can on the field and then take the city. Occasionaly a family member escapes me and then you end up fighting a tiny force of depleted units in the city but its easy at that stage.

If you have no choice and need a city fast and they are not relieving the city then what I tend to do is use heavy inf mostly with some decent archers and slingers in support. I never try take the gate. Instead target the walls with towers and ladders. Sword beats spear on the wall so get the heaviest infantry you have up there to take the gatehouse. At that point do not rush in! Get archers on the wall to kill the enemy in the streets. Only then do I rush the town centre.

Losses are higher than if I fight in the open field but seldom more than 30% unless they have Hypaspistai on the walls. Again, mostly I try to avoid fighting to the city centre, I can generaly get them out the walls or seige them out.

[Juvenal]

Success against stone walled towns requires an appreciation of the defender's advantages and appropriate action to eliminate or work around them.

There are three ways to assault a Stone-walled town.

Entry via the Gatehouse - don't
You will always take casualties attempting this. Rams can be lost to fire arrows. The Ram unit will take losses to arrows, and then to boiling oil, and finally will get caught in the gateway out of formation and massacred.
Even if you got your spy to open the gate, it can still be very expensive to enter by an enemy-controlled gatehouse because of losses to the arrow towers while your guys mill about.

Entry via Breaches - a glorious death
You can make breaches without taking any losses, but be warned that not all sap-points are out of range of the walls and towers, so you will need to build several more than you need to have a chance that enough will be placed in safe points to attack from.
When an assaulting unit enters the breach, it will become disordered. If you don't have enough breaches, then your men will invariably be caught halfway through the breach and forced to melee at a disadvantage.
Don't expect to be able to push through by piling in with more units - they will just get caught in the mass and offer more targets to enemy missles.
Once you have captured a breach, you will continue to take casualties until you have captured the enemy towers on either side.
Entering an enemy tower from the ground level doorway involves a long wait while your unit mills around trying to decide what formation to adopt before walking up the stairs. I have had units decimated by this delay, sometimes even routing with no enemies in sight.
There is a good chance that enemy reinforcements will show up before you can get into the tower - leading to yet more losses to arrows while you fight the melee.

Going over the Walls - the only way to travel
Siege towers involve the attacking unit standing at the base of the tower for a considerable period before entering. The Siege Tower bug in patch 1.5 can make this effect even more painful while you try to coax your guys into the tower.
Ladders deploy more quickly than siege towers and your unit can attain the walls more quickly as well. The only disadvantage is that your unit is targeted during the approach march, so only use ladders where there won't be a lot of incoming fire during the approach.
Build a lot of ladders, and use all of your deployment area. This causes the AI to spread its wall defenders.
When the battle starts, concentrate on the 2 or 3 ladders with the best prospects and run in some follow up units behind them.
A successful escalade is where you can capture a section of wall unopposed and capture the arrow towers either side.
You can now move in the follow-up units and capture a gatehouse so that your main force and cavalry can rush to the plaza.

Cavalry are good for intercepting enemy units retreating to the plaza. They can be disengaged as soon as you can get some infantry in to take over.

Because of the enemy ability to block streets with single units, you need to capture a lot of wall so that you can take multiple routes to the plaza without getting shot at.

Once you have sufficient force at the plaza - you must use only part of it to engage the defenders while manoeuvring around behind them with the rest. Simple frontal assaults are not efficient because enemies on the plaza never rout, and because your units always lose formation as they enter the plaza.

Don't forget to move missile units around to shoot the plaza defenders in the back.

Happy storming...

[HeirophantX]

Ideally, if there's a wooden wall I build two rams and split my force more or less evenly ensuring that at least one unit of spear infantry and one unit of skirmishers is in each assault team. After the gate is down, I have my skirmishers attack the enemy unit guarding the gate. Once they start taking casualties, they either move or attack. If they move then I charge in with my spear infantry and order them into a forward defensive position so they'll be able to respond to whatever the garrison does. Meanwhile I run my remaining inf, cav and skirmishers into the street in mutually supporting positions. If the enemy attacks through the gate, then I laugh and charge them while they are disordered and shortly my troops will be celebrating.
Once I'm in (I don't advance on the square until both of my forces are inside the gate), I advance up the street. Spear infantry first backed up with Hvy Inf and skirmishers. Standard procedure after that. Enemy units who try to interdict us on the road get held in place by spears. Meanwhile I oder my hastati or principes to move to a position a bit to the side and rear of the enemy spear unit. At least half of them will complete the manuever, more if there is more room to get around. Inevitably some of them come close to the enemy unit en passant and enage directly. Once a significant number of the Inf are behind the enemy spears, pila in the back and chaaaaaaaarge. The enemy spears break and die. Continue up the street, repeat until you're at the square.
By attacking from two directions at once the garrison can't concentrate against either of your assault teams. Or, if it does against one, then your other guys have time to move into the square and that causes the garrison to abort their counter-attack by pulling back troops. Often, the garrison will manuever quite a bit within the city. That's good. It tires them out and when they are running around they are extra vulnerable. Meanwhile, you are slowly and steadily marching up the avenue with your force together. At the end, he must split his force to attack you when you approach the square, leaving him vulnerable. The narrow streets work both ways, and with Roman troops who are more flexible, you have the advantage of manuever by being able to slip infantry round his spears.

With a stone-walled city, I wait them out and let them sally. A trick I like use when they sally is to take a cheap unit and rush up to the gate as it opens and charge the units emerging. The gatehouse then drops oil on their own troops. I once destroyed 3 units of phalangites and decimated the general's cav unit in this manner before I ran out of Samnites. Good trade. Once the enemy gets ouside of the gate, I charge them. I run my units up near the gate (and accept arrow casualties from the towers) on either side of the path they would take to exit the city. As the enemy is reforming ranks, I charge them, from two directions at once if possible. Rinse, repeat as necessary. With a bit of luck you can fight the entire garrison before they form up and never have to face them in a straight fight. I find this is the best way (your mileage may vary) to limit my casualties when taking a heavily fortified city.