Future Map Expansion?

[Sejanus]

I was just wondering if a westward expansion of the map might be considered for future releases. Although this entails a great deal of work, I think the potential to have the entire medieval Muslim world in one mod would be astounding.
Inclusion of Al-Andalus, Maghreb, Mali, southern Italy, and the Baltic states (currently Byzantine, but future Turkish territories) in addition to the more eastern factions already included would provide for incredible campaigns. But since the western Muslim world was largely independant from the eastern, it could also easily be a whole new modification, or a separate campaign/map in a future form of this mod (similar to the way you could choose the England map or the Europe map with VI). I don't know how viable this is, but I do think it's something worth considering.

-Sejanus

[Ahiga]

The problem with expanding west is that you open up a can of worms. There's no real neat point in which to separate our map from Europe except pretty much at it's current point of Istanbul (Was Constantinople!).

Our focus is primarily upon the center of the map, with the Crusades, the Mongol Conquests, the Eastern Christians vs the Muslims, and the Muslims in India. I'm hoping that someone decides to represent the Muslims of North Africa and Spain in justice (And not just skimp them over in one faction where every damn Reconquista Kingdom is represented in unique detail) but it is highly unlikely we will be the ones to do so. Assuming we continue work on the mod as an evolving product post release, there are still many factions within our map that bear our attention.

It would be nice, but we don't have the manpower, nor target of featuring the Muslim West. I hope someone will do the Western Muslim world Justice, as I do not believe we'll be those to do so.

[Miraj]

When I first began formulating this mod in my head during my Electric Circuits II class (a class that I would go on to get a C+ in ) I actually wanted to make this the mod that covered the entire Islamic world, from Spain to Northern India. However there is one enormous problem with this and that problem is that to include spain and india on a map, you need to include pretty much 90% of Europe. Which in turn means you need to include most of those European factions, and which finally results in a mod that isnt about the middle east - exactly the opposite of what my intention would be.

Another point is uniqueness, such an enormous map spanning spain to india is also not unique and would probably be done anyways by other bigger mod teams like Medieval Total Realism (I had assumed at that time they were well under progress). Call me arrogant if you will, but I wanted BC to be something no one could possible copy or overlap with.

Another important point is "scope". As they saying goes "he who defends everything, defends nothing". BC has an very tight scope and a well defined game world. Every faction has a purpose and personality. When you zoom out further and include such a large map, you lose that personality and detail.

So in general there are many factors I think that makes the current BC map the perfect setting, IMO, for a middle-east centred mod. Medieval spain is really the only muslim area that we sacrifice and its a reasonable sacrifice because the reconquista and taifa era it deserves it own mod.

[The Mongol]

Why?

That's my question.

Why? Everyone and their dog is doing European mods. Why not expand farther East and get some more of India, Tibet and China perhaps. Or South and get more Africa?

What happened to making a unique refreshing mod? Is it illegal now? I swear to god, if I fight one more time on the Italian peninsula I am going to slide down a giant cheese grater naked.

To each his own I suppose.

*dies*

[Ahiga]

Well he's asking more in favor of the North Africans and West Muslims, I think

[The Mongol]

Sorry, I saw "Southern Italy" and had the urge to flail around in a pile of dirty needles.

I like the Western Islamic factions because they totally differ from the Easterners.

[Beauchamp]

Im definantley more for an expansion, but I do NOT want to include more euro factions, instead, think of all of the factions not represented:

Somalia/Afar
Ethiopia
Mali
Songhay
Kanem-Bornu
Benin
Senegal

and more
etc. etc.

the point is.
Enough with the euro factions, just as Mongol said(+ rep) and more of the other factions never playable.

Thats why I support BC!
BC Zinda Bad (Long live BC in farsi)!

[Tadzreuli]

Mirage, Mongol, Beachamp,

you speak the truth, all were already bothered with one and too, games exclusively about the Europe, the same countries....

Actually the east, the near east the Europe has richer and long history of wars, than Europe !

I do not wish to be tendentious, but here for example the ancient Christian countries of Caucasus as Georgia and Armenia during the history have lead in an aggregate number of more wars, than together the European countries of the Middle Ages.

In spite of the fact that strong Georgia together Armenians was stronghold Christianity in the Near East after in XII century, when Byzantium in has fallen in decline, European moders or do not know about it, or intentionally do not consider rich military history the Georgian.

For example, many European likely do not know historical fight in 1074 in Phartskhisi (Georgia) when the Georgian king Giorgi II (1072-1089) in the first histories has crushed not victorious the Turk-Seljuks ! And it happens after shining win Turks above Byzantian at Mantsicert (1071) !

If not David's shattering victory of IV "the Builder" over moslems coalition army of Jihad in battle of Didgori (1121) then Turkish emir Il-Gazi ahead of schedule would cancel the Jerusalem kingdom and all Crusaders states, before Salah-Ad'din will born ! ...

It " not knowledge " a fruit of totalitarian Soviet empire, but fortunately in the modern world are no any more the Iron Curtains and the Europe much surprising learns about history of Caucasus and Georgia.

I think, that it is time moders is borrowed by studying of the Caucasus, near east, middle east and far Asia, as Muslim, and ancient Christian world then the young Europe !

[Beauchamp]

Woa! I had know idea Tadz. I guess history from the caucus is really interesting, the only things I know about it are ancient and about the Naqshbandia revolt.

[Tadzreuli]

about the Naqshbandia revolt.

my God ! who was "Naqshbandia", Beauchamp? I never heard about them??? realy !

[Beauchamp]

Naqshbandia is a tariqa or school of Sufi thought. They were prominent all over the world during the late 1800's. The revolt im reffereing too was a guriella Jihad against the russians in the caucasian mountains led by Imam Shamil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Shamil).

I also have a circassian friend who knows alot about the history of his people.

[Tadzreuli]

by Imam Shamil

ah, yes, yes, I forgot, sory

[Miraj]

Well said Tadz. I agree that lot of Western Europeans automatically assume that anything east of Byzantium is Muslim and forget about how vigorously the Georgians had to defend and maintain their independence during the Medieval ages.

[Georgian Knight]

Yeap every nation deserves that world knew about It's History, because every nation is unique

[The Mongol]

I can honestly say I haven't looked much into Armenian or Georgian history, I think I'm going to read up on them, their history sounds rich and interesting.

[jermagon]

Well I think the middle east and Muslim world deserve a perfect mod like broken crescent ,but I dislike the idea of including Europe in all the mods,why all the Europeans wanna put their noses in all mods lol, Representing the reconquest and Muslim Iberia is very interesting and amusing but needs it's own mod.Bc is good enough for eastern faction's fans also you have a variety,if you like to play pure arabic faction then play the abbasids or the ayyubids,if wanna play Persian faction then play the khwarezmids...and so on

[Sejanus]

Whoa whoa, holy **** guys. hold up a second. im pretty sure i never said ANYTHING about including all of europe. at all. no need to get all touchy about this. i was simply saying that western muslim factions are cool too. i wasnt bashing the eastern factions or anything, im really happy someone is finally doing a mod that goes into the east. but lets face it, the muslim world certainly extended into spain and southern italy. muslim sicily could be a mod in and of itself.
i just think it would be a good idea if *someone* were to portray the western aspects of the islamic world, even on a different map that doesnt include all of europe (just the parts that were important in the muslim world). not to mention north africa and all of the outrageously awesome african nations that existed during that time. When Mansa Musa, the king of Mali, went on a pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324 he brought so much gold with him and his caravan that the inflation in Cairo caused by it was still apparent 12 years later. that seems like a pretty interesting and important faction if u ask me. im not saying at all that we should sacrifice the qualities of this mod to include that. nor am i some european trying to stick europe into everything. im just suggesting some new thoughts in case anyone else might consider ways to bring them to fruition.

[Miraj]

Whoa whoa, holy **** guys. hold up a second. im pretty sure i never said ANYTHING about including all of europe. at all. no need to get all touchy about this. i was simply saying that western muslim factions are cool too. i wasnt bashing the eastern factions or anything, im really happy someone is finally doing a mod that goes into the east. but lets face it, the muslim world certainly extended into spain and southern italy. muslim sicily could be a mod in and of itself.
i just think it would be a good idea if *someone* were to portray the western aspects of the islamic world, even on a different map that doesnt include all of europe (just the parts that were important in the muslim world). not to mention north africa and all of the outrageously awesome african nations that existed during that time. When Mansa Musa, the king of Mali, went on a pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324 he brought so much gold with him and his caravan that the inflation in Cairo caused by it was still apparent 12 years later. that seems like a pretty interesting and important faction if u ask me. im not saying at all that we should sacrifice the qualities of this mod to include that. nor am i some european trying to stick europe into everything. im just suggesting some new thoughts in case anyone else might consider ways to bring them to fruition.

Yeah, I agree we might have gone off on a bit of a tangent. But like I said in my first reply there is *no way* that the western Muslim world can be incorporated on a map without including Europe in its entirety. I am as interested in the moorish/spanish histories and have always been fascinated by it but I have tried every possible map orienting humanly conceievable to include Spain and every rendtion has to include at least France, Germany, and Italy. So its not that I was implying you were asking for European factions but its just that going west means that will be a inevitable side-effect.

Also I think that a lot of people replied quite strongly about this issue because they might have misread the post to mean precisely what you weren't aiming at and the fact that every other mod out there is pretty much identical to each other and focuses entirely on western Europe. This is the only mod that does the opposite and a lot of people feel quite strongly about keeping this mod focused east of Constantinople.

[The Mongol]

*foams from the mouth*

RAGHAHGA... die unbeliever this is a Middle-Eastern mod!

*wields his torch and pitchfork*

Anyways, I didn't mean to come off as offensive, I love Western Islamic factions too but they would be completely bare over there and you'd eventually need to add European factions to spice it up.

[Tadzreuli]

And on it BC is very competent and the most realistic mod from all mods !!!

VIVA BC !