Were there any "frontier garrisons" in WRE during the timeframe of this mod?

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Greetings to everybody. I've been thinking about this and I'd really appreciate your answers. To me, the likelyhood of having frontier garrisons after 410 sounds crazy. I mean, we know that the frontiers of the WRE had collapsed under the pressure of the barbarians some years before 410 AD. So if there weren't frontiers to protect now, what was the point of having limitanei as part of the army? Did they cease to exist as a unit? But if they continue to exist, were they transferred to the field armies and was the concept of frontier garrisons the one that disappeared? What I'd like to know is if after the collapse of the frontiers the (Western) Roman Army turned entirely into a field army or if they tried to establish new frontiers so they could keep using the frontier garrison system. Please, feel free to banish my ignorance.

[Black Francis]

On the contrary, many Limitanei units even survived the fall of the Empire and continued to serve the new rulers.

There is a "Life of Severinius" (a Saint) written in the late fifth century that records that in Noricum (Austria) Roman Limitanei units still made the trek over the mountains to Rome to pick up their wages every year from whoever was in charge.

By the Late Empire many of the Limitanei units had become somewhat part-time and most soldiers had their own farm or business to supplement their incomes.

Later this would also become the case with the Comitatenses. They had became firmly rooted to their home provinces and were disinclined to leave (see Ammianus).

This was a further factor that contributed to the recruitment of barbarians and later paid personal armies such as the infamous "bucellarii".

So yes, they continued to exist.

As for when the borders "collapsed"? It is pretty impossible to date such a thing. Especially considering that Late Roman strategy was to allow a degree of penetration into the province before the regional field army arrived to deal with a significant barbarian threat. The Limitanei were intended to man and police the frontier and combat small raids, not to take on huge migrations directly.

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Thank you for answering my question Black Francis. But that raised new questions for which I'd really appreciate an answer, please. For example, you said that the limitanei continued to exist after the fall of the empire, so my question is what were they doing during the timeframe of the mod until 476 AD? Were they joined to the field armies or were they either assigned to new frontier posts or back to the already-overtaken old ones? From your answer I understand that limitanei continued to be recruited, if the frontier-guarding system kept going on, then it's understandable their continuing recruiting but if not what was the purpose of maintaining the existence of this type of unit?

[Black Francis]

Thank you for answering my question Black Francis. But that raised new questions for which I'd really appreciate an answer, please. For example, you said that the limitanei continued to exist after the fall of the empire, so my question is what were they doing during the timeframe of the mod until 476 AD? Were they joined to the field armies or were they either assigned to new frontier posts or back to the already-overtaken old ones? From your answer I understand that limitanei continued to be recruited, if the frontier-guarding system kept going on, then it's understandable their continuing recruiting but if not what was the purpose of maintaining the existence of this type of unit?

Now I think you are asking what happened to Limitanei after the barbarians took over.

It is my opinion, and I would say the general academic opinion, that once a province is conquered by "barbarians" it is most likely that either:

A) The individual or unit disbands because there is no longer any additional pay/benefits to be gained from continuing as military unit.

B) The individual and unit continues to operate as military unit as pay and benefits continue.

Now we must remember that in most of the new "Kingdoms" the barbarian overlords were an elite minority. This meant that when they had established a new "kingdom", rather than totally destroying the existing Roman institutions (such as tax collection or even the provisioning and upkeep of military units) they were inclined to keep them running. Therefore, they turned to the same local Roman elite (who filled the roles of officials) to continue governing the "kingdom" as best they could. It is natural to assume (and indeed evidence would suggest) that some "Roman" military units simply continued to serve. They were not reassigned, they just kept going on until eventually they lost their identity generations down the line, be that one or twenty.

Indeed, with the stability of the Empire gone, there was still a need for militia, if not more so, in the new highly unstable period.

In some instances units were reassigned to remaining "Roman" areas. This is more likely for units in the regional field-army than in the Limitanei. However, by the time the Empire "fell" in the west most units (of both the theoretical Comitatenses and Limitanei) were quite "settled" and not inclined to move from their region, as I have already mentioned. In Ammianus we see Julian having great trouble trying to get the Gallic army to move past the Alps. Remember, that the field-armies were still regional and that only the central field-army of the Emperor was more mobile.

Units tended to be moved around the Empire (and never return to their "home") when big campaigns were afoot or when usurpers gathered units to themselves and went off to claim the purple. They tended to settle wherever they ended up. Now, when the Empire was "falling" (the very very late Empire, after Alaric sacks Rome) it was because there simply were no effective units to move around the empire other than barbarian foederati/bucallerii so there were not that many instances of units being transferred.

Of course, if you are playing the Western Empire, it doesn't need to be this way. You are another strong Emperor of the model of Valentinian and Constantine I and capable of keeping the army going!

It would be better if you saw the Late Roman units as units and not Limiatnei of Comitatenses. Limitanei and Comitatenses are just names for a role and denote their position within the greater Roman strategic ideal laid out by Constantine. The only real difference was that units in the Comitatenses were likely to have been better equipped and paid and had a higher status as professional troops.

What this means in terms of the mod.

Nothing much. The Comitatenses and Limitanei in the mod just represent Roman units equipped and used differently due to their supposed position in the Roman military system.

We cant really portray Roman units continuing in barbarian service, but what can be done is allowing barbarians to recruit a Roman "milites" unit of men equipped and fighting in the Roman way.. but this is already "in" as far as I am aware.

PHEW! Do I deserve some rep now?

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Thank you for all that information Black Francis, it was very illustrative to say the least; and you certainly deserve some rep now (whatever that is).

[Elrond]

The Limitanei were reestablised by Justinian in the 530s to guard the reconquered lands in africa - so the frontier troops did out last the WRE - I am not sure if they lasting continuly though.

[Riothamus]

Wanted to add to this interesting topic by PSEUDO ROMANUS
Heres some info that might throw a bit more light on to what Black Francis so very well laid out and to Narses Justinian info.

This is inregards to the battle of chalons 451AD and the western roman army at the turn of the 5th century. It tries to get an idea of what kind of numbers the WRE had at the turn of the century and to what point it desintergrated by the time of the Battle of Chalons 451AD. The foederati now dictated the future of Rome, good or for worse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chalons#_note-5
"A better sense of the size of the forces may be found in the study of the Notitia Dignitatum by A.H.M. Jones.[22] This document is a list of officials and military units that was last updated in the first decades of the 5th century. Notitia Dignitatum lists 58 various regular units, and 33 limitanei serving either in the Gallic provinces or on the frontiers nearby; the total of these units, based on Jones analysis, is 34,000 for the regular units and 11,500 for the limitanei, or just under 46,000 all told. While the Roman forces in Gaul had become much smaller by this time.."

[Riothamus]

No disagreement here I dont think...Was trying to make the point by the Notitia Dignitatum of a frontier amy at the time of the IBFD MOD 410AD as inquired by PSEUDO ROMANUS..and the disintegration of this frontier army by the time of Aetius. Edit:....edited some babble o my part