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Thread: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

  1. #21
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Well, the Knight of Malta today is more like a Red Cross organization than a religion order.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    well since the question is how good they were and not what happened to them until today:

    the knight orders outmatched the other crusaders or soldiers easily. they were trained well, they had good equipment, a strong codex and high morale. That's why they've been petty much successful in the Holy Land and why so many land was given to them in Palestine, since they were able to hold it together and defend it properly.

    after Hattin Saladin for example granted the defeated army of Jerusalem to return home into their European countries, but he executed every member of a knight order, since he saw them as the biggest threat. this episode underlines the importance of the 3 big knight orders (Templars, Hospitallers, Teutonics) in the Holy land as a significant military factor.

  3. #23
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Teutonic in Holy Land?? I know they were in Holy Land in the beginning but moved to Prussia quite early right??

  4. #24
    Hansa's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Teutonic in Holy Land?? I know they were in Holy Land in the beginning but moved to Prussia quite early right??
    Jepp, via Transylvania, and work for the kingdom of Hungary. I wouldn't call it Prussia though, as the Prussian state grew from the order state set up by the Teutonic order.

    As for the combat effectiveness of the orders in the Levant, they were pretty impressive. As they were extremely highly valued by the westerners and utterly demonized and feared by their enemies they must have been quite efficient. As for their discipline, they appear to me to be extremely disciplined soldiers, they had a tendency of suicidal charges towards utterly superior enemies. This is not symbolic of a lack of discipline but rather bad leadership, as these charges happened after orders were given by commanders.

    As for other orders, yes there were lots of religious military orders. Knights of St.Thomas, Sword Brethren of Livonia, Knights of St.Lazarus, etc.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Super Pope View Post
    They hve a house or something in Roem which is officially there state. look it up in an atlas. They are also represented in the UN
    so doesn't that make THEM the smallest state in the world rather than the Vatican ... they why is it said that the vatican is the smallest nation in the world ... maybe its some kind of integral government of sorts.

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  6. #26
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    so doesn't that make THEM the smallest state in the world rather than the Vatican ... they why is it said that the vatican is the smallest nation in the world ... maybe its some kind of integral government of sorts.
    Probably because they are not counted as a "state". Their represent, if my memeory does not serve me wrong, is using for meeting about charity work.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Then why are they represented in the UN ... certainly thats not accurate info i presume ... no offense Superpope

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  8. #28
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    Then why are they represented in the UN ... certainly thats not accurate info i presume ... no offense Superpope
    They did have represent in UN. However, as I say, their represent ONLY participate in UN charity work (same as Red Cross).

  9. #29

    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Oh ok ... well that makes a lot more sense

    But wouldn't it be easier just to associate oneself with the Vatican ... why the 'seperatism'

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  10. #30
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Hopefully this one can clean your doubt.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soverei...s_of_the_Order

    Also, I make a mistake. There are four Order of St. John exist today:

    1. Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta. It is a Catholic chivalry organization under the control of Vantican.

    2. Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem. A Protestant royal chivalry organization under UK. Many Commonwealth memebers have their branchs.

    3. Brandenburg Bailiwick of the Knights' Order of the Hospital of St John in Jerusalem. A Protestant chivalry organization in Germany.

    4. Russian tradition of the Knights Hospitaller. As the name suggests, it is Russian version of Order of St. John. I thought it was extinct after 1917 Revolution, but it seems an exile headquarter is in France until the end of USSR. Today they have bases in both Paris and St. Petersburg.

    Today all four Orders claimed they are directly related to the original Order of St. John, which in truth is, of course not since the "official" Order was disbanded during Napoleanic War. However, as all four organizations were created by the descents of original Order and all participated in chivalry work, who cares what their origin is.

    Edit: About Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem, I have some friends who were its members during my Secondary School in Singapore (Commonwealth member). It is very popular in Singapore and nearly every school has one branch. Unfortunately, 80% of its members did not even know the history of the Order, and most of its student members have little desire to serve others and help poors...
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; July 10, 2007 at 09:38 PM.

  11. #31
    Eric's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Well I know the Knights Templar. Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights were all feared on the field of battle.

    Turning east, the Shaolin monks of China were dangerous on the individual level, probably not in armies though.

    Other than that, religious orders aren't often that violent. Well... not directly at least.
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  12. #32
    Atterdag's Avatar Tro og Håb
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Other Christian Religious Orders existed In the Baltic before the arrival of the Teutonic Knights.

    One who comes to mind is the Order of the Sword Brethren (or Livonian Brothers of the Sword).

    They were later incorporated into the Teutonic Order after a pretty bad defeat at the hands of Baltic natives in the Battle of Saule.
    There's much more info on wikipedia.
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  13. #33
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Turning east, the Shaolin monks of China were dangerous on the individual level, probably not in armies though.
    Shaolin monks are not a religious order nor military force, they learn martial art simply because they want to train their body stronger so they can endure their religion training.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atterdag View Post
    Other Christian Religious Orders existed In the Baltic before the arrival of the Teutonic Knights.

    One who comes to mind is the Order of the Sword Brethren (or Livonian Brothers of the Sword).

    They were later incorporated into the Teutonic Order after a pretty bad defeat at the hands of Baltic natives in the Battle of Saule.
    There's much more info on wikipedia.
    Yes, the "Baltic natives" - were Lithuanians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansa View Post
    Jepp, via Transylvania, and work for the kingdom of Hungary. I wouldn't call it Prussia though, as the Prussian state grew from the order state set up by the Teutonic order.
    It is rather absurd to deny the original name of the place just because Germans called their state the same name - Prussia. The Baltic tribes that they conquered - were Prussians.

    regarding military effectiveness. I know only of Teutonic Order. They were rather effective and formidable opponents. One of the best military organizations in Europe at the time.
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  15. #35
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Interesting. The only religion order that I can call "understand" is Order of St. John, and I am not sure what Teutonic Order did in Baltic Crusade...

    Anyway, I am interesting in Religion Orders simply because they were the only organization in human history similar to Space Marine in Warhammer 40k.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Lets remember that when the Emperor of Byzantium asked for help he was asking for 300 knights not an army. So I would say the fact that they were relatively few in number is miss leading. They were like the German Tiger tanks of their day. No Muslim cav force or much else could stand a charge by them. Thats why in MTW2 10k is too much money. You have too damn many knights on the field.
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  17. #37
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post
    Lets remember that when the Emperor of Byzantium asked for help he was asking for 300 knights not an army.
    ?? Which Emperor you are talking about?

  18. #38
    Eric's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Shaolin monks are not a religious order nor military force, they learn martial art simply because they want to train their body stronger so they can endure their religion training.
    Yes I realise that. I'm just saying that you still wouldn't want to pick a fist fight with a Shaolin monk .
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Hospitallers remain true to one part of their tradition through their medical involvement, but I wander if they still practice the martial part of their tradition. What I mean is, if one managed to piss a Hospitaller Knight off would the knight put on his armour, grab his sword and cut the offender in two?

  20. #40
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Fighting religious orders: how good were they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulius Hostilius View Post
    They don’t have lands, but they are a state. Hospitalliers, or the order of Malta have investments mainly in Europe, in the health business.
    you'll find them world wide... the protestant side have investment across the planet in private health care in particular. they also run ambulance services across the british commonwealth and possibly further. every australian, new zealand, south african rugby or football or field hockey player knows them well, as they are often the first aid of choice used by amature sports clubs.
    Last edited by antea; July 16, 2007 at 05:05 PM.
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