Well, the Knight of Malta today is more like a Red Cross organization than a religion order.
Well, the Knight of Malta today is more like a Red Cross organization than a religion order.
well since the question is how good they were and not what happened to them until today:
the knight orders outmatched the other crusaders or soldiers easily. they were trained well, they had good equipment, a strong codex and high morale. That's why they've been petty much successful in the Holy Land and why so many land was given to them in Palestine, since they were able to hold it together and defend it properly.
after Hattin Saladin for example granted the defeated army of Jerusalem to return home into their European countries, but he executed every member of a knight order, since he saw them as the biggest threat. this episode underlines the importance of the 3 big knight orders (Templars, Hospitallers, Teutonics) in the Holy land as a significant military factor.
Teutonic in Holy Land?? I know they were in Holy Land in the beginning but moved to Prussia quite early right??
Jepp, via Transylvania, and work for the kingdom of Hungary. I wouldn't call it Prussia though, as the Prussian state grew from the order state set up by the Teutonic order.
As for the combat effectiveness of the orders in the Levant, they were pretty impressive. As they were extremely highly valued by the westerners and utterly demonized and feared by their enemies they must have been quite efficient. As for their discipline, they appear to me to be extremely disciplined soldiers, they had a tendency of suicidal charges towards utterly superior enemies. This is not symbolic of a lack of discipline but rather bad leadership, as these charges happened after orders were given by commanders.
As for other orders, yes there were lots of religious military orders. Knights of St.Thomas, Sword Brethren of Livonia, Knights of St.Lazarus, etc.
GEIR HASUND!
By the way, though my avatar might indicate so, I am not a citizen of Germany, though my ancestry have a branch in this great nation.
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Then why are they represented in the UN ... certainly thats not accurate info i presume ... no offense Superpope
Prince
Growing Up In The Universe <- Check It Out !!!
Oh ok ... well that makes a lot more sense
But wouldn't it be easier just to associate oneself with the Vatican ... why the 'seperatism'
Prince
Growing Up In The Universe <- Check It Out !!!
Hopefully this one can clean your doubt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soverei...s_of_the_Order
Also, I make a mistake. There are four Order of St. John exist today:
1. Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta. It is a Catholic chivalry organization under the control of Vantican.
2. Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem. A Protestant royal chivalry organization under UK. Many Commonwealth memebers have their branchs.
3. Brandenburg Bailiwick of the Knights' Order of the Hospital of St John in Jerusalem. A Protestant chivalry organization in Germany.
4. Russian tradition of the Knights Hospitaller. As the name suggests, it is Russian version of Order of St. John. I thought it was extinct after 1917 Revolution, but it seems an exile headquarter is in France until the end of USSR. Today they have bases in both Paris and St. Petersburg.
Today all four Orders claimed they are directly related to the original Order of St. John, which in truth is, of course not since the "official" Order was disbanded during Napoleanic War. However, as all four organizations were created by the descents of original Order and all participated in chivalry work, who cares what their origin is.
Edit: About Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem, I have some friends who were its members during my Secondary School in Singapore (Commonwealth member). It is very popular in Singapore and nearly every school has one branch. Unfortunately, 80% of its members did not even know the history of the Order, and most of its student members have little desire to serve others and help poors...
Last edited by hellheaven1987; July 10, 2007 at 09:38 PM.
Well I know the Knights Templar. Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights were all feared on the field of battle.
Turning east, the Shaolin monks of China were dangerous on the individual level, probably not in armies though.
Other than that, religious orders aren't often that violent. Well... not directly at least.
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Other Christian Religious Orders existed In the Baltic before the arrival of the Teutonic Knights.
One who comes to mind is the Order of the Sword Brethren (or Livonian Brothers of the Sword).
They were later incorporated into the Teutonic Order after a pretty bad defeat at the hands of Baltic natives in the Battle of Saule.
There's much more info on wikipedia.
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عیسی پسر مریم گفت :' جهان است پل ، عبور بیش از آن است ، اما هیچ ساخت خانه بر آن او امیدوار است که برای یک روز ، ممکن است برای ابدیت امیدواریم ، اما ماندگار جهان اما ساعت آن را صرف در دعا و نماز برای استراحت است نهان
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Yes, the "Baltic natives" - were Lithuanians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sun
It is rather absurd to deny the original name of the place just because Germans called their state the same name - Prussia. The Baltic tribes that they conquered - were Prussians.
regarding military effectiveness. I know only of Teutonic Order. They were rather effective and formidable opponents. One of the best military organizations in Europe at the time.
member of B.A.L.T.S.
Interesting. The only religion order that I can call "understand" is Order of St. John, and I am not sure what Teutonic Order did in Baltic Crusade...
Anyway, I am interesting in Religion Orders simply because they were the only organization in human history similar to Space Marine in Warhammer 40k.
Lets remember that when the Emperor of Byzantium asked for help he was asking for 300 knights not an army. So I would say the fact that they were relatively few in number is miss leading. They were like the German Tiger tanks of their day. No Muslim cav force or much else could stand a charge by them. Thats why in MTW2 10k is too much money. You have too damn many knights on the field.
I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.
Better to stand under the Crown than to kneel under a Flag
Life is fleeting, but glory lives forever! Conquer new lands, rule over the seas, build an empire! World Alliances
Hospitallers remain true to one part of their tradition through their medical involvement, but I wander if they still practice the martial part of their tradition. What I mean is, if one managed to piss a Hospitaller Knight off would the knight put on his armour, grab his sword and cut the offender in two?
you'll find them world wide... the protestant side have investment across the planet in private health care in particular. they also run ambulance services across the british commonwealth and possibly further. every australian, new zealand, south african rugby or football or field hockey player knows them well, as they are often the first aid of choice used by amature sports clubs.
Last edited by antea; July 16, 2007 at 05:05 PM.
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