Byzantium research

[ME2_junky]

For those of you that remember, or have read my research thread...I focused on Egypt. My next target was actually the Seljuk turks. I was however side tracked by the Byzantine empire.
I have spared you my research progres posts & simply post what I believe should be changed with this faction currently.

The research thus far:

Cavalry:

Trapezitos (light cavalry)

Vardariotai (christianized turkish horse archers)

Turkopouli (sons of Vardariotai, horse archers, not as good as vardariotai)

Phryngian Chmatenoi (medium armour & FAST, spear/mace)

Tagmata cavalry (Medium armoured horse, all purpose cavalry, lance/bow/sword + expensive)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Tagmata were a specialized army core that was created in the late 7th centuary to counter the increasing threat of the sassanid empire and general arab empire wide outbreak.
This was a professional army that made up the core of any Byzantine attack. They had their own units, from infantry to cavalry & were collectively known as 'Tagmata'
They had Byzantine cavalry units stationed at constantinopole for most of their time. They were actually armed according to role & had many different types of equipment. I suggest to make them all purpose and well trained. They also need to be expensive.

Kataphractoi (heavy armoured horse, less than vanilla)

Kilbanophros (The real cataphract)


Infantry:

Peasant spearmen

Skutatos (heavy Spearmen + secondary sword)

Peasant infantry (Unarmoured semi-disciplined infantry with low morale)

D. kataphractoi (Heavy infantry, feudal knight style)

D. Kilbanophros (Super heavy, prone to fatigue, recommended stats 10 att, 25 def)

Tagmata light infantry (Professional infantry, well equipped, highly trained and expensive to boot)

Tagmata heavy infantry (Professional infantry, well equipped, highly trained and expensive to boot)


Archers/missile:

Peasant archers

Psilos (archers)

D. Vardariotai (Replacement for Guard archers, less armour)

Light Solenarion (crossbowmen)

Heavy Solenarion (Very powerful crossbow)

Trebizond archers (IF they have Trebizond)

Tagmata archers (Late period, Elite archers, as all tagmata, very expensive.)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Although the empire neglected archery for the most part, it was later re-enforced by order of the emperor that people should practice archery once a week, regardless of military service. In a lter period, when the player will get a chance to create professional military buildings, such as a military academy, this unit should become available.

Mercs:

Byzantium would use mercenary armies from "allied" lands that would pay regular tribute to the empire.
These "allies" were called 'Symmachoi'

These should be more expensive than usual.

Symmachoi Patzinak

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(Turk tribe, fought with bow and javelin. Historically they used many different secondary weapons, but I thought this would give more diversity.)

Symmachoi Cumans (Cuman horse archers)

Symmachoi Alans (alan light cav)

Symmachoi Turks (Turkoman)

Symmachoi Normans (Norman/frank knights)

Symmachoi Venetians (Venetian archers, Byzantium had pretty crap archers)

Symmachoi Bulgars (Bulgarian brigands, no doubt)

Symmachoi Armenians (armenian heavy cavalry)

Symmachoi Serbs (Unknown, possible cannon fodder infantry.)

Starting Territory:

Byzantine Themes 1025AD

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Byzantine at around 1030AD

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Insight into the territorial situation after Manzikert

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.britannica.com/eb/art/print%3Fid%3D677%26articleTypeId%3D0&h=421&w=631&sz=56&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=hnZj3TQj9kEkyM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3DByzantine%2Bempire%2B1080%2Bmap%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26hs%3DlnS%26sa%3DN

Byazntine at 1081

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Some backround information

[url]http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/medieval.html[url]

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare...y/turmoil.html

What they should have:

Merchant bank & vault.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They had a very successful management system, it would be easier to add these buildings than create a new 'management' building. the end result is the same, more money, in this case, due to efficiency.

Trebizond archers IF they have Trebizond. After their loss at Manzikert they should not have this unit.

What they should not have:
Guard archers, these could possibly be the D. vardariotai by name change.

Skythikon. These are to be replaced with Symmachoi units.

Byzantine cavarly. Replaced with Symmachoi.

[ProneStar!]

hmmm some interesting research i'll give you that except you are missing a lot of units that are much more important than most of those listed. I do agree with the Kataphractoi/Kilbanophros, to a degree except that the fact the Kataphractoi were the true warriors who fought with bow, lance, and mace, the Kilbanophros were mainly heavy missile cavalry with maces as well. If units are added in the is game peasant class units are not one that needs to be worried about. You shouldnt forget the pronoiar (basically latinkon except home grown) who in later periods of the empire were the equivalent of western knights to a degree except much more professional. Basically what a lot of people forget is that the Byz/roman empire were so effective was because the majority of their non-mercenary troops were well disciplined and professional armies before the concept of professional standing armies were even considered by western nations.

Vardaiotoi were great mounted archers, no need for a dismounted unit.

Also the Varangian corps need to be expanded, they were more than just a group of former vikings who came to the byz for riches. They eventually became setup in the empire itself to the point they were made up of the descendants of those earlier varangians from within the empire. They were prized as bodyguards because of their extreme loyalty, their goal was to protect the emperor as long as he lived with their lives. There was an incident in which the emperor was murdered and as the guard arrived they found the killer over the emperors body and basically they just said "what now emperor" because they recognized the emperor was dead and revenge was pointless what mattered was the empire. Anyhoo i got off track they were also formed into archer units (omg guard archers!) and even formed cavalry units.

Essentially what happened with the game is CA fubar'ed the cavalry quite a bit especially its importance to the empire, screwed up how the heavy infantry was used and organized/named, and decided that they dont get any late era units or generals bodyguard because the original empire fell in 1205 during the 4th crusade by the dirty Venetians. What they didnt think of is how the empire of Niceae actually reconquered Constantinople and much of the former empire becoming the byzantine/roman empire and survived until 1453 when the city fell to the turks.

One more thing the topic of the byzantines not having cannons is BS, in 1453 at the siege of Constantinople the city had 200 cannons in the city (granted they were mostly smaller serpertine type cannons with only a few larger cannons that they bought or were given as gifts from hungary), but they had gunpowder none the less.

[ME2_junky]

I agree with much of what you say, and have read most of it already. There were however reasons why the Byzantine empire fell. One of those reasons was its growing dependence on mercenary units. By giving its own native general/mayors increasing payment, and when they had no money than with lands & a lowered tax on those lands. They reached a state that it became increasingly problematic to pay for a regualr, native standing army.
So the reliance upon mercenaries was vital, but unfortunately mercenaries were at times a complete waste of money, in others they switched sides when they were not paid (go figure )

There is no doubt that 'home grown' byzantine units were of exceptional training and quality, but they were increasingly few.
After manzikert there was an attempt at reforming the army and general view of waging war, alas, these have quickly eroded some 150 years later...

So while I will added certain elites, based on history as much as possible. I do feel it is necesary to give a player the real feeling of an empire in decline.
To do this, a initial unit pool of pretty basic units will be given & the unit tree being intentionally weak. But with time, assuming the empire can last (in the game) there will be much needed reform in unit ranks, providing either better units, or larger numbers of elite units.

Despite knowing that the varangian guard were not wholy comprised of scandinavians, I believe a single type of guard should suffice for game balance.

The guard did however have some negative history with incidents such as attacking the emperor & refusing to fight unless they get paid more than usual etc..

There is always need for a dismouted variation, as horses COST.

I am still researching the subject and it is by no means final. It is vital to point out that I am using history as a point of origin for game design/balance.

Important note: I have not read anywhere that the Klibanophoroi or kataphractoi were remotely related to missiles.

[ProneStar!]

i understand that your using history as a basis and thats why i am trying to give a helping hand.

It is important to remember this game opens at the end of the Golden age of the byzanntine empire (843-1025) and the beginning of the Comnenian revival of the empire (1081-1204). [The years between the 2 periods was know as the period of governance by the civil aristocracy and marked the collapse of the political system at home and abroad.] At this point the empire had just lost what remained of their Italian holdings, a loss of authority in the Balkans, and collapse of power in Asia. At this point the entire system of the empire gets rebuilt by Alexius I, who had the unpleasant task of laying new foundations for the empire. The loss of Asia minor (where much of the strength and resources of the empire were) was mostly abandoned without fighting. This is also the time that the Byzantine naval supremacy was beginning to be challenged and was no longer the supreme power it was.

So yes the empire is in decline. However their is a misconception on the reliance of mercenary units in the empire, true they did hire more than anyone else, but thats because of several reasons.
1. They had the money, even in decline the Byzantines were still one of the greater economical powers in the time.
2. The empire had been under constant attack throughout its entire history, usually by more than one foe. Even when it was paying the turks to keep a peace treaty in the east(which as usual the turks always break) they were under attack from rebellions from the lands that were conquered, and quite often having to fight off the normans as well. Usually as soon as they dealed with one foe another arose, in this case after dealing with a norman incursion they immediately had to deal with the Patzinaks. As the Patzinaks were laying siege to Constantinople the emir of Smyrna launched a sea on the city(1090-91) the byzantines allied with the Cumans and slaughtered the entire Patzinak nation at the battle of Mt. Levunion, in what Anna Comnena wrote "an entire people, numbering myriads, was exterminated on a single day.

3. On the rare occasion they werent under extreme pressure by enemies on all sides the Byzantines would essentially liquidate 90% of their mercenary forces, by giving them a final pay and the boot, going back to mainly forces of imperial natives that could be replenished after a war with ease.

Manzikert is one of the most misunderstood battles out there and certainly the most misused battle when speaking of the Byzantines. The battle was mainly a cavlary battle that was won by the turkish hit and run tactics as well as the fact that the turks engaged on their terms and hid during the night. The turks disintegrated the left and right flanks of the army and then whittled away at the core units until much of the army was in full rout. The emperor was wounded and captured and brought before the turkish sultan Alp Arslan, in which a famous conversation occured
Alp Arslan: "What would you do if I were brought before you as a prisoner?"
Romanus: "Perhaps I'd kill you, or exhibit you in the streets of Constantinople."
Alp Arslan: "My punishment is far heavier. I forgive you, and set you free."

Upon returning to his subjects he was taken off the throne and blinded quite brutally. This defeat wasnt the great slaughter it is often touted to be (only 2000-3000 dead on the byzantine side) instead is was a great blow morally and marked the failure of a mercenary heavy force, because of imagined political coups and plots against the emperor.

This was a sign to the east that the byzantines were truly losing in the east and was around the time when the first crusade was called to help their christian brethren in a holy war against the cruel sufferings of eastern chrisitans. This also shows a marked difference between the east and west in the the Byzantines wished to reclaim the holy lands simply because they were formerly of the empire, while the westerners felt a holy war was happening and used it as a call to battle. It is also worth noting that the Byzantines didnt understand the idea of a "just war" based on religous reasons and considered it wrong to war in the name of god.

Alright one final thing in this post i promise . The power of the empire as it grew and fell is directly tied to its emperors (something mirrored to a lesser extent in the west[Charlemagne anyone?]). The emperors considered the greatest Justinian and then John II Komnenos were extremely educated men who were warrior kings. The early line of emperors had many great emperors and a few that were weak and caused turmoil in their lands. After Manzikert the Komneian reforms took place and did help to reform the military might of the empire for a while. However with the Angeloi line taking power as emperors was the true decline of the empire and their poor leadership and decision making skills was what brought about the empires ruin in the Fourth Crusade. The reformed empire had great success initially under its great leaders however a decline in the abilities of the rulers and the increasing pressure from the west combined with the over powering Seljuq Turks being largely united delivered the crushing blow in 1453.

[Mike13531]

Thank you for doing one for byzantum. +rep for you

[ME2_junky]

@ProneStar!

First of all, thank you for taking the time to post here.

Second it is always a pleasure to see someone contribute, so fear not and post as long as needs be. I read such things with joy.

Thirdly, in Manzikert the emperor fell pray to three factors beyond Seljuk tactics. First the cousin of the previous emperor betrayed him during the battle. Second the forces he sent on foraging missions did not come back at all to aid him and finally, the rear guard of the army immediately retreated without a fight.
There is another decisive factor that lost Byzantine the war, the emperor. Against the recommendations of his generals he attacked the Seljuks leaving nothing as a garrison in the captured Manzikert fortress. By the time he realised he is too far from the fortress, he started doubting the attack, as the seljuks refused to engage, rightly so. The order to turn around was not carried well, apparently, the core middle nearest to the emperor turned back, yet most did not. The army was so large that Dukas (the previous emperor's cousin), so it is believed, initiated a rumour that the emperor is dead, hence they are turning back.
the army was in a moment of chaos when Arslan decided its the right moment to attack.
The armenians retreated without a fight. A few days prior to engaging some Uz mercenaries switched sides for not being paid for a while. Some seljuk mercenaries defected at the begining of the campaign, as they would not fight their own people.
As I undertood there were NUMEROUS problems with the entire operation.
The most modest estimation number the Byzantine army at 200,000 men. Out of which some 40% are believed to be none combatants. Many were mercenaries. There is a noted incident with Frank mercenaries; pillaging the supply wagons, and would not stop until the majority of the army drew swords by order of the emperor.

Some believe that if the rear guard did not retreat, the battle could still be saved. Estimations of Arslan's forces are around 15,000 + whoever changed sides vs. the original Byzantine force: minus two large foraging companies, minus the armenians, minues the Uz, minus the seljuks that defected, minus Dukas' forces, minus other smaller groups of mercenaries that simply fled.

So in essence the rear guard was somewhere in the area of 10,000. It might have changed the entire course of history if it did not turn tail and run! Turkey may have yet been greek these days

In fact the only thing that worked right in Manzikert were the varangian guard who defended the emperor until the bitter end.

But enough about Manzikert...

What we need are quality units that could have some flare in the game, for the potential (planned) 'revival' of the empire.

@Mike
Thanks alot for the +rep!

P.S.

I appreciate any and all input. Do not hesitate to correct me, it will be much bette rif any and all flaws, mistakes etc are found.

[ME2_junky]

About the balance of the Byzantine faction...I think it is important to leave the fate of the empire in the player's hands. That the revival of the empire might not happen if the player is not prudent in his or her decisions.
Still unsure how it will be implemented...
I am thinking along the lines of causing major havoc in the long term growth of the faction. In the form of poor initial generals with alot of corruption and poor taxing abilities. Low loyalties and some pretty weak standing army.
Something that will make the player count every penny and really put economic long term growth into the player's priorities.
Well it sounds complicated maybe, but it should be simple enough.

[Mike13531]

Heh, as a byzantium-player, I like ideas about byzantium very much. It is a widely-loved faction to play, however, As all of you probably already know, CA had really messed up bad on this one. They lack units, they lack culture, as historically recorded it should be a cultural place, naturally they should have many more buildings that other factions do not have. Also, in game, i know that place can already earn up to 6400 florins, however, realistically i'd say it should go up to 8000 with the right trade agreement and completely updated.

[Volkograd]

Heh, as a byzantium-player, I like ideas about byzantium very much. It is a widely-loved faction to play, however, As all of you probably already know, CA had really messed up bad on this one. They lack units, they lack culture, as historically recorded it should be a cultural place, naturally they should have many more buildings that other factions do not have. Also, in game, i know that place can already earn up to 6400 florins, however, realistically i'd say it should go up to 8000 with the right trade agreement and completely updated.

By that token I can say that the muslim factions such as the moors and the egyptians should also have many more buildings that other cultures do not, seeing as how the arab caliphate was the center of learning and culture in the world for much of the dark ages and the medieval period.

[Mike13531]

Heh, as a byzantium-player, I like ideas about byzantium very much. It is a widely-loved faction to play, however, As all of you probably already know, CA had really messed up bad on this one. They lack units, they lack culture, as historically recorded it should be a cultural place, naturally they should have many more buildings that other factions do not have. Also, in game, i know that place can already earn up to 6400 florins, however, realistically i'd say it should go up to 8000 with the right trade agreement and completely updated.

[Caesar Clivus]

Now here's a coincidence. The very minute before I logged on and read this post, I had just finished reading about Manzikert in a Byzantine history book It's a great book and I have a few more I want to get through. After that I may be able to contribute here in more than a vague way

PS - great info guys! keep it up. +rep

[ProneStar!]

indeed i agree whole-heartedly that what the byz need in this game is a complete overhaul militarily. I want to help as much as possible, but the reason i am not currently doing a full scale conversion for the Byz is simply
1. My computer is a p4 , i can still max out the settings in the game and play battles of under 1500. I usually just play with no filtering at all and i have no probs playing.
2. Right now my computer is somewhat stretched thin on space, both of my hd's are almost full.
3. My job is tech support so some days i dont feel like looking at a computer.
4. Im getting a new rig in august, so i can continue my CG and video editing work on the side.

Once i have my new comp i will be able to start work on modding a little more than the dabbling i do know.

As always though anyone with questions on the Byz/Eastern Rome, i am always willing to help.

@ME2_junky

I'd love to help you get this going, and anyway i can help go ahead and ask

[Quark]

I think its unfair to entirely blame the Venetians in the Fourth Crusade, they just wanted paying for the ships, it was Alexius who caused all the trouble for Constantinople, if he had just paid them the 200,000 he promised, Constantinople would not have been sacked, and the crusaders would have gone on their merry way.

Do the muslim fractions need an overhaul -YES, especially the turks, buts thats another thread.

Have a check at Order of Saint Constantine the Great for Byzantium

What ever you do put some kind of knightly order in.

Also what about Pronoiars

As I understand it the Komnenian army was a professional, disciplined force containing formidable guard units such as the Varangian Guard and the Immortals (a unit of heavy cavalry) stationed in Constantinople. It also had levies from the provinces, such as Kataphraktoi cavalry from Macedonia, Thessaly and Thrace, Trebizond Archers from the Black Sea coast of Asia Minor and Vardariots, a cavalry unit recruited from Christianised Turks of the Vardar valley. This was the army that increased the control of Byzantium under its great leaders from 1081 -1185. After that, Byzantium was ruled by some of the worst leaders in history and so collapsed. Assuming that the player is running the nation, then that would mean that the unit roster would be excellent in the beginning.

Some units such as the Pechenegs (cavalry archers) came from conquering native tribes, so you may wish to add these in as mercanaries.

Manuel I introduced many western knightly practices into the empire, so a second/third tier unit should be heavy western cavalry.

Check out The Development of the Komnenian Army: 1081-1180 (History of Warfare) by John W. Birkenmeier in the libary (its a bit expensive)

[ProneStar!]

yes i have a number of book on this subject, however i dont have that one. Yes i know its not entirely the venetians fault, but a very large part of everything that fell apart rests on their soldiers. You also have to realize that at the time of the 4th crusade The Byz were in a time of a relative peace(at least for them :\ ...) and the majority of their heavy cavalry at the time were disbanded.

I now plenty of how the army was setup and organized. Right now ME2_junky and i are working on laying some concepts down for a new Byzantine empire, that would be mostly accurate, and hopefully actually balanced. Hopefully when we get some groundwork laid we can get to making it happen.

[Manuel Komnenos]

Now here's a coincidence. The very minute before I logged on and read this post, I had just finished reading about Manzikert in a Byzantine history book It's a great book and I have a few more I want to get through. After that I may be able to contribute here in more than a vague way

PS - great info guys! keep it up. +rep

What book?

[Caesar Clivus]

What book?

"A Concise History of Byzantium" by Warren Treadgold. Its a great overview of the history of the Byzantine Empire to get familiar with the general course of events.

Yesterday I just bought "The Fall of Constantinople". It has a lot of info about the Byzantine army and some great pics of units. Might have to post some and convince KK to do some Byzantine skins

[Mike13531]

quark, i don't personally care that much for the muslim factions because i don't like playing as them, i would if there is more units like mercenary saracens, cause IMO they are one of the best units ever made.

Again this is a byzantium thread because it's a highly popular faction.
ME2_Junkie, do you feel like creating new units?? or rather, can you?? that'll be awesome

[ME2_junky]

Yes I can create new units....currently I am doing just that for my mod. Specifically two dismounted units for Egypt.

I won't be creating any Byzantium units for SS. It is not my mod and I have not been asked to do so by KK.
After all, I cannot force my modifications and or suggestions.

Besides, I am confident KK will implement some of the things discussed here. Maybe just a little thing, maybe evertyhing, depends on him.

This thread, if it will go unused by KK, will rack up for my mod later. Probably towards version 1.6/1.7

Maybe it can be a completely independant mod...we'll see.

In any case, it will not go to waste.

[Mike13531]

but can you release your units independantly? cause i don't think everybody will like vidahl and byg's mini-mod(of course they are great work, but it'll be a waste if ppl complain about those stuff that isn't even yours, right?)

and thank you very much ^_^, good luck with the units. Btw, my suggestions would be more units with axe, like vikings and so on... Maybe even 1 or 2 middle east units since they are so close. They should be able to hire 1 or 2 just as the muslims can recruit christian guard...

[Volkograd]

but can you release your units independantly? cause i don't think everybody will like vidahl and byg's mini-mod(of course they are great work, but it'll be a waste if ppl complain about those stuff that isn't even yours, right?)

I think you're the only one I've seen post who doesn't think that Byg's mod is a good idea and a cool addition to SS as a whole.