Gunpowder Units

[Moobke]

I got a question regarding the formations of the gunpowder units.
As an example, take 6 musketeer squads, group them, put them in a single line waiting to defend against the enemy.

When the enemy comes closer they start to shoot (still going good untill now) BUT a squad chooses their target enemy squad (the problem is coming ^^). The problem here is, as soon as the targeted enemy squad gets in an angle where the musketeers can't shoot straight at them, the musketeer squad starts MOVING untill they can shoot again. (even in guard mode)

The problem here is that i DON'T want them to move, i want to keep my battle line intact. Eventually you can have 6 musketeer squads all standing and aimin in a different dirrection.

For me this is a BIG dissapointment in the gunpowder units. Is there any way you can fix this?

[Hanny]

disble fire at will on the unit icon.

[Moobke]

But i want them to fire at will, but also that they STAND GROUND.

[Hanny]

well what you want and what the game will allow you to do are not the same thing, if you enable fire at will , the unit will move to continue to fire, its that simple, and bolding what you want, will not change that fact, what will is manualy controlling your units, to get them to do what you want.

[Moobke]

Well that is not really a fact, you can put archers in fire at will with guard mode to. They aren't gonna break their lines. It is also more logical that they are enabled to fire at will while staying in line.

[Hanny]

musketeres are not archers now are they?, they dont operate under the same game dynamics, (direct fire as oposed to direct and indirect fire) which is what your noticing and posting about, and which i have answered.

[Moobke]

But they SHOULD work the same, the way they work now is stupid and ruins the accuracy of the battles ingame.

In my opinion in fire at will mode, the musketeer unit should fire AS LONG as the unit in in range of fire. When the enemy unit is no longer in range of fire they should attack a different target or not attack at all. It is much more logical then breaking a line... sending cavalery through a broken line = instant win.

[Phil Stanbridge]

It's probably a bug in the original code - we have to live with little annoyances like that - there's always a comprimise.

[Hanny]

But they SHOULD work the same, the way they work now is stupid and ruins the accuracy of the battles ingame.

No they should not, and do not, you havge a bad habit of bolding words where there is no need, it only detracts from your point.

its a pysical universe they computer uses, an archer arrows follow x and y (horizantal and vertical) vertices to the target, so it can do overhead fire to strike a target, a muskater follows standard ballistics and goes in staright line to the target and has a reduced anngle of fire built into the unit. So the acuracy of the game balsitics are acurate, not stupid.


Acuracy is therfore exactly as in real life, despite your contention, in real life a firearm fired alongside your head breaks you ear drums and makes you deaf, deaf soldiers have a problem following orders, which is part was why the triple line went to a double line, and in part why in game the mausketer units dont fire in as many ranks as archer units, dont have all around angle of fire and so on.

In my opinion in fire at will mode, the musketeer unit should fire AS LONG as the unit in in range of fire. When the enemy unit is no longer in range of fire they should attack a different target or not attack at all. It is much more logical then breaking a line... sending cavalery through a broken line = instant win.

I already told you how to overcome that, the problem is your use of the game engine, not the game engine itself.

[Moobke]

Blah, i'll just play with the Byzantines then. No annoying gunpowder units to controle.

[Phil Stanbridge]

Blah, i'll just play with the Byzantines then. No annoying gunpowder units to controle.

lol..

[Irishmafia2020]

Perhaps you can mod the musketeers so that they engage in indirect fire. I have never done that, but you can do a forum search for the method. I know that some modders switched the crossbow units back and forth, so it should be possible. That way you can play the game however you like....

[Moobke]

So your saying, if i tell them to fire at will, it is normal that they break a battle line? :o

In my eyes, Stand ground: defend and hold current position
Fire at will: shoot at all targets

Both possible at the same time.... And not the cause of the problem.

[Hanny]

So your saying, if i tell them to fire at will, it is normal that they break a battle line? :o

yes, its all to do with the pysics of the game engine and the x and y posistion of firer and target.

In my eyes, Stand ground: defend and hold current position
Fire at will: shoot at all targets

Both possible at the same time.... And not the cause of the problem.

but that is the problem your haveing, because you give the wrong orders to the units to prevent movement, by allowing fire at will to occur and the unit must move to remain in line of sight so as to fire. the game does not fix a unit in place without any movement, all move to fire on targets of opurtunity.

essintially you want the units to act in a certain manner, to do that requires you manually give them the correct orders to achieve that, since youve chosen to automate them and they do something else, you think there is a flaw in the game, when its your use of the units via orders, that is the problem.

[Xeno_cws]

I think the major difference between archers and muskets that they are trying to say Mooke is that Archers can fire straight or up. Meaning if the enemy is say in a spot close enough to target but not shoot straight, they fire up meaning they don't have to move (and break formation) to fire.


Muskets can't shoot up so they have to move to a position to fire straight, thus your line will be broken when their line of sight is.

This really becomes apparent when half your troop is able to fire, while the other half can't so they move to be able (while the rest stays put).

It is a limitation of the engine in that it doesn't recognize that fire at will at targets you are able too, but do not move if you cannot.


Don't understand why hanny went off about formations, and blown ear drums though...?

[Hanny]

I

Don't understand why hanny went off about formations, and blown ear drums though...?

Moobke commented on it being inacurate, when in fact the combat model is acuarte, it represents limited ranks of man able to deliver firearms at a target, as oposed to unlimited ranks of archers fireing overhead without moving to do so, or fire all around to 360 degree, while a firearm unit is limited to its ranks that can fire, its angle of fire, and line of sight to target.

I just made a reference to history for him, about the difference of a swish of an arrow from 1 feet away as oposed to being made deaf by a firearm, since he wanted to reference battlefield accuracy in the game engine.

[Xeno_cws]

Don't want to be rude or poke the dead horse here but I think you misunderstood what Mooke was really saying.

I believe he meant that men running from their formation to get a clear shot at the enemy while the rest stayed back is historically inaccurate and would be ruin if cavalry charged.

Also he stated in his first post that he uses 1 line formation not the usual 3-4 line formation of archers:

"As an example, take 6 musketeer squads, group them, put them in a single line waiting to defend against the enemy."

I think he was meaning one big long line instead of six lines one behind the other.



Anyways hope this cleared things up Mooke

[Moobke]

Don't want to be rude or poke the dead horse here but I think you misunderstood what Mooke was really saying.

I believe he meant that men running from their formation to get a clear shot at the enemy while the rest stayed back is historically inaccurate and would be ruin if cavalry charged.

Also he stated in his first post that he uses 1 line formation not the usual 3-4 line formation of archers:

"As an example, take 6 musketeer squads, group them, put them in a single line waiting to defend against the enemy."

I think he was meaning one big long line instead of six lines one behind the other.



Anyways hope this cleared things up Mooke

This is what i meant ^^ thank you for clearing it up. English isn't my mother language, i do my best but...


Now you really understand what i'm trying to talk about, what do you think of this?

[Hanny]

Don't want to be rude or poke the dead horse here but I think you misunderstood what Mooke was really saying.

I believe he meant that men running from their formation to get a clear shot at the enemy while the rest stayed back is historically inaccurate and would be ruin if cavalry charged.

Also he stated in his first post that he uses 1 line formation not the usual 3-4 line formation of archers:

"As an example, take 6 musketeer squads, group them, put them in a single line waiting to defend against the enemy."

I think he was meaning one big long line instead of six lines one behind the other.



Anyways hope this cleared things up Mooke

could be a langauge issue, but yes thats what i understood him to mean, the ranks are set out in the unit file, so grouping 6 units puts them in the default number of ranks, and each unit in a line next to one another. now a % of men in a unit can be out of formation at any point in time without the unit haveing any detrimetal effect oin its movement of firing, this is in another file and set golabally for all units.

On auto fire at will, therfore, some members of musketer units move to be in angle of fire, while an archer because he has 360 degre fire arc does not move to achieve this, while on the same order. to prevent this you can:A) alter the ranks of the unit in the unit file, B) remove the fire at will order and repalce with targeted fire on your input.

historical accurate is not to have your musketer unit in a single line of men of one rank, as this never, ever happened in real life, in game terms iof thats what he ios doing, he only has himslef to blame for adopting a bad formation, and then blameing the game engine for doing so.

[Xeno_cws]

Well in my post above this I said "It is a limitation of the engine in that it doesn't recognize that fire at will at targets you are able too, but do not move if you cannot."

If thats what you are referring too. I don't know if it can be modded, I would ask Darth he is probably the best man to talk to about this.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=293