Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: Superfluids

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lancaster, England
    Posts
    818

    Default Superfluids

    Right, since some of you have asked about superfluids I'll do a short article on them. I'll try to keep the technical stuff to a minimum so as many people as possible can understand it, but if anyone wants a bit more depth then feel free to ask.

    What is a Superfluid?

    A superfluid is like a fluid but super! It's basically a fluid that has a viscosity of zero. This leads to some interesting effects, such as being able to leak out of a container, high thermal conductivity and being able to go along tiny tubes (superleaks) that normal fluids can't fit down.

    How do you get a Superfluid?

    To make a superfluid, you take some helium 4 (helium 3 works too but at lower temperatures) and you make it cold. This is usually done by reducing the pressure on a cryostat (big thermos flask) containing liquid helium 4. As we all know, reducing the pressure on a liquid lowers its boiling point and a liquid cannot exist above its boiling point since it turns to gas at that point. Therefore by lowering the boiling point you lower the temperature.

    When the temperature hits 2.17K the bubbling caused by boiling ceases and you have a superfluid on your hands. What has happened is that all the atoms that make up the helium have dropped into their ground state. This causes the entire fluid to behave as if it were a single atom (a Bose Einstein Condensate). This is why a superfluid is sometimes known as a macroscipic (seeable) quantum phenomenon. That's all the technical stuff for this article so you can relax again!

    Actually, at 2.17K there will be a mixture of normal fluid and superfluid coexisting in the cryostat. These are generally described as interpenetrating but non-interacting. That means that they both occupy the same container but are unaware of each others existence. As you get colder, more and more of the normal fluid becomes super, until you get pure superfluid at about 1K.

    Some fun things to do with Superfluids

    Zero viscosity is a fun thing to play with. If you put superfluid in a dish it will appear to leak out of the bottom of the dish. Clearly any normal fluid will not do this. What happens is that it sticks to the sides of the container and rises up them (just like a normal fluid would rise up a capillary tube). It gets to the top and falls down the outside, emptying the container pretty quickly!

    The high thermal conductivity can be used to fun effect too. This is the reason the bubbling stops: bubbles are caused by local pockets of fluid rising above the boiling point of the fluid and turning into gas, this gas then rises through the fluid causing bubbles. In a superfluid local heating is impossible because heat is spread evenly throughout the whole fluid so quickly that bubbles don't have time to form.

    The concentration of normal to super fluid is also strictly adhered to and is spread uniformly throughout the fluid. This also happens very quickly. You can create an interesting fountain by placing a heater just below a capillary tube that is pointing upwards. The heater converts superfluid to normal fluid, messing up the concentration locally. Superfluid then rushes over to restore the concentration and gets shot up the capillary tube. You can get heights of about a metre!

    One useful application of this is as a pumping mechanism for helium in space, where it's naturally superfluid anyway, since it's so bloody cold up there!

    If I've helped you, rep me. I live for rep.

  2. #2
    Miles
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Wow, I didn't even think humans worked with temperatures that cold. Isn't 0 k somewhere in the -400's? Fascinating, and I didn't even know it existed. Thanks Chris for opening my eyes to another interesting phenomenon which I really had little (or in this case, no) knowledge. What would we do without you? Then we would have to listen to Simetricals explanations, which are quite often wayyyyy over my head.

    I'm not afraid of death...it's not being alive that scares me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsiuv View Post
    Wow, I didn't even think humans worked with temperatures that cold.
    Bah. 1 degree Kelvin is nothing. In my lab we can trap atoms at mK or uK.
    Last edited by ajm317; July 05, 2007 at 03:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Miles
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Well, what is 0 kelvin? Just out of my own curiosity. I'm sure I could look it up, but if you're right here.

    One last question. Are we capable of producing tempuratures of 0 kelvin in the laboratory? Is that not when ALL molecular motion stops? Sorry if I'm coming across as a dumbarse, I'm just interested in extremes. Extremely hot, cold, old, distant, all of it fascinates me.

    I'm not afraid of death...it's not being alive that scares me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Yes, 0 kelvin is "absolute zero." It is the point at which all molecular motion stops.

    No we cannot reach 0 kelvin, even in the lab. In fact, it is impossible to do so. However it is possible to get as close as you like, provided you are patient enough.

  6. #6
    Miles
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Is there any reason that you know of that 0kelvin cannot be reached? Does it exist anywhere in nature? I don't mean to hijack the thread, but chris isn't even around right now anyways.

    I'm not afraid of death...it's not being alive that scares me.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Miles
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Thanks for your help. You deserve some rep.

    I'm not afraid of death...it's not being alive that scares me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsiuv View Post
    Thanks for your help. You deserve some rep.
    Thanks, maybe one day I'll get that crown.

    Incidently superfluids are very cool. I didn't know about the leaking from containers thing, +rep for that chris.

    On a side note to anyone interested, superfluids, Bose-Einstein Condensates and superconductors are all interelated.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Because 0k it is not moving atall, to observe it you would move it.
    That and many other reasons is how I understand it.

  11. #11
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    16,973

    Default Re: Superfluids

    What if a drank a superfluid beer. WOuld it just leak outta me? Unconventionally of course?
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Superfluids

    super conductors are loads of fun, at UCL one of the profesors showed me an experiment they ran where they put an eletrical current through a coil that was at very very low temperatures. then they took away the elecrtical source but the current kept flowing, so they waited to see how long it went on for...a minute...then a day...then a week...after three years they asked a theoretical physicist to work it out.



    he reckons 10^10^10 years
    Sired by Niccolo Machiavelli
    Adopted by Ferrets54
    Father of secret basement children Boeing and Shyam Popat

  13. #13
    Miles
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Wow, that's a long time.

    I'm not afraid of death...it's not being alive that scares me.

  14. #14
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lancaster, England
    Posts
    818

    Default Re: Superfluids

    What if a drank a superfluid beer. WOuld it just leak outta me? Unconventionally of course?
    Anal answer: No. First you can't get superfluid beer, only pure helium works. Secondly, it'd be at a maximum 2.17K which would severely burn your (yes you get cold burns as well as hot ones, and they hurt just as much ). If you managed to swallow the superfluid (which would rapidly turn to gas as it came into contact with the heat of your body), the cold would cause your oesophagus to contract right up and burn it and you'd suffocate. If the liquid got into your stomach it would turn to gas. Helium gas is 700 times the volume of helium liquid, and your oesophagus would be sealed shut, so you'd explode (or at least have massive internal haemorraging (sp?)).
    Nice answer: Probably

    Well, what is 0 kelvin? I'm sure I could look it up, but if you're right here.
    You're a lazy lazy individual. A quick search of "0 Kelvin" on Google yielded -273.15 C, or -459.67 F. And no, you can't reach it. The reason AJM gave was as good as any

    Bah. 1 degree Kelvin is nothing. In my lab we can trap atoms at mK or uK.
    So can my (ex) lab , but they don't let undergrads play with expensive equipment like that we were stuck with vacuum pumping on helium, whereas the big boys get to play with adiabatic demagnetisation on a dilution fridge, I don't know what the current record is, but it's certainly microKelvin. I think you can get colder though with your laser trap, but you can only do a few atoms; we can do a bucket!

    super conductors are loads of fun, at UCL one of the profesors showed me an experiment they ran where they put an eletrical current through a coil that was at very very low temperatures. then they took away the elecrtical source but the current kept flowing, so they waited to see how long it went on for...a minute...then a day...then a week...after three years they asked a theoretical physicist to work it out.
    Yeah, supercunductors are fun (they have zero resistance at a low enough temperature for those who don't know). Try your coil think with rod of iron through the middle, you've just made a permanent electromagnet since the current never stops flowing. They've got one of these in Lancaster's physics dept, it's been constantly magnetised with no external current source for 10 years now! They're also used in MRI scanners and on MagLev trains in Japan.

    If I've helped you, rep me. I live for rep.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    So can my (ex) lab , but they don't let undergrads play with expensive equipment like that we were stuck with vacuum pumping on helium, whereas the big boys get to play with adiabatic demagnetisation on a dilution fridge, I don't know what the current record is, but it's certainly microKelvin. I think you can get colder though with your laser trap, but you can only do a few atoms; we can do a bucket!
    Yeah, the guys who do BEC have the same setup we do, and they go down to nK or even pK. We don't need to go quite that cold though, although we may in the future.

  16. #16
    Miles
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post

    You're a lazy lazy individual.
    I don't think that's entirely fair. I think a lazy individual would be much more apt. On a side note, ehhhh, bite me.

    I'm not afraid of death...it's not being alive that scares me.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Superfluids

    So can my (ex) lab , but they don't let undergrads play with expensive equipment like that we were stuck with vacuum pumping on helium, whereas the big boys get to play with adiabatic demagnetisation on a dilution fridge, I don't know what the current record is, but it's certainly microKelvin. I think you can get colder though with your laser trap, but you can only do a few atoms; we can do a bucket!
    you should do astrophysics, their equipment has to be cold, in the words of one of the proffesors at cardiff "this is pretty old so we just let undgrads play with it, it only does 0.25K"
    Sired by Niccolo Machiavelli
    Adopted by Ferrets54
    Father of secret basement children Boeing and Shyam Popat

  18. #18
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    16,973

    Default Re: Superfluids

    Anal answer: No. First you can't get superfluid beer, only pure helium works. Secondly, it'd be at a maximum 2.17K which would severely burn your (yes you get cold burns as well as hot ones, and they hurt just as much ). If you managed to swallow the superfluid (which would rapidly turn to gas as it came into contact with the heat of your body), the cold would cause your oesophagus to contract right up and burn it and you'd suffocate. If the liquid got into your stomach it would turn to gas. Helium gas is 700 times the volume of helium liquid, and your oesophagus would be sealed shut, so you'd explode (or at least have massive internal haemorraging (sp?)).
    Nice answer: Probably
    So, that detailed answer, is that the result of scientific deduction or was someone actually stupid enough to drink a superfluid lol
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  19. #19
    LSJ's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,932

    Default Re: Superfluids

    I love superfluids for their properties. How awesome is a liquid that crawls UP the side of a bowl?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Superfluids

    it seems to me superfluids have some pretty incredible implications if we can just figure out how they fit together with all the new stuff we got going

    curious chris, are there studies on how superfluids could be used in micro hydraulics or is the density not powerful enough to operate in the same way as regular fluid hydraulics?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •