View Poll Results: Are you think about that mosque? To be built or not?

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  • I am against that mosque!

    57 61.29%
  • I am for that mosque!

    36 38.71%
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Thread: German mosque dispute

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  1. #1
    Vampire's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default German mosque dispute


    COLOGNE, Germany - On Muslim holidays, hundreds of faithful hoping to pray at the city's Ditib Mosque are forced to spread their prayer rugs in a nearby parking lot and follow the service on loudspeakers. The mosque holds only 600 people.


    Yet plans to replace the flat-roofed storefront mosque with a new house of worship, complete with dome and two 177-foot-tall minarets, have triggered an angry response from right-wing groups and, most recently, Cologne's Roman Catholic archbishop.

    Mehmet Orman, 43, a Turkish immigrant who prays every night at Ditib Mosque — ignoring its broken windows and worn-out prayer rugs — hopes construction can begin, as scheduled, by the end of the year.

    "There are 2.7 million Turks in Germany — of course we need a big, representative mosque in this country," Orman said.

    Construction of mosques in Europe has rarely happened without much hand-wringing. In France, the scene of riots in largely Muslim and African suburbs in 2005, and Britain, which has just been threatened by a new wave of Islamic terror plots, there have also been protests against the building of new mosques.

    But Cologne has such a prominent Catholic heritage that Pope Benedict XVI has dubbed it the "Rome of the north" — and the project has stirred deep passions.

    Last month, dozens of right-wing extremists from all over Germany, Austria and Belgium demonstrated against construction of the mosque, saying the building would "fortify the Muslims' claim to power in Christian Europe," as the demonstration's organizer, Manfred Rouhs, put it.

    Rouhs heads the right-wing Pro Cologne movement, which has collected 18,000 signatures from local residents against the disputed mosque. It would be located in an immigrant neighborhood with Turkish tea houses, kebab restaurants and gold jewelry stores.

    It's not just the extremist fringe that is upset, however — opposition to the mosque has also built up in the center of the German society.

    Joachim Meisner, the archbishop of Cologne, said in a widely publicized interview on Deutschlandfunk radio that the construction of the mosque would make him "feel unwell" and the "immigration of Muslims has created a breach in our German, European culture."

    Meisner's words count a lot in Cologne, which is one of Germany's most devoutly Roman Catholic cities. It is famous for its 750-year-old cathedral with its two 515-foot landmark steeples and 12 Romanesque churches.

    Mehmet Yildirim, director of a Turkish-Islamic umbrella group for 700 German mosques called Ditib, called the objections "racist and insulting."

    "We shouldn't have to justify ourselves that we need a house for prayer in Germany," Yildirim, 56, said in an interview at Ditib's headquarters in Cologne.

    The dispute further escalated when Ralph Giordano, a prominent German writer and Jewish Holocaust survivor, demanded that the mosque not be built and declared the integration of Muslim immigrants a failure because Germans and Muslim immigrants were living in parallel societies.

    "I don't want to meet burqas and chadors on German streets nor do I want to hear the call of the muezzin from towering minarets," Giordano, 84, wrote in a commentary for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung daily.

    Giordano said he has received six phoned death threats from Turks as a result.


    The 48,000-square-foot mosque would be one of the biggest in Germany, with space for up to 2,000 worshippers, an Islamic library, facilities for cultural events and several stores. The construction would cost between $20-40 million and mostly be financed by private donations.

    Approximately 3.3 million Muslims live in Germany, 70 percent of them originally from Turkey.

    While the city has not yet issued the final building permit, many city council members are in favor of the project, said Marlis Bredehorst, Cologne's official for integration.

    "It is important that the Muslims here get dignified houses of prayer — they are part of our society," Bredehorst said. "Two hundred years ago, the Protestants had to pray secretively in Catholic Cologne — that is something we can't imagine anymore today."
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  2. #2
    Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    If I wanted to open a cathedral in Saudi Arabia or somewhere I would be told where to get off. Also, sending death threats to an 84 year old Holocaust survivor is not the best way to win friends

  3. #3
    Muagan_ra's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    If the local Muslims need a mosque, they need a mosque, but architecturally it should be less abrasive. Those minarett's sound a bit much - I understand that they have their traditions, but so do Germans, and those Turks are in Germany now.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Super Pope View Post
    If I wanted to open a cathedral in Saudi Arabia or somewhere I would be told where to get off. Also, sending death threats to an 84 year old Holocaust survivor is not the best way to win friends
    How dare you? Don't you know that Islam is always the hapless victim in absolutely everything?!
    Last edited by Muagan_ra; July 09, 2007 at 07:49 AM.

  4. #4
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    I voted in favor of the Mosque, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Super Pope View Post
    If I wanted to open a cathedral in Saudi Arabia or somewhere I would be told where to get off.
    But it's not in Saudi Arabia, nor in "Christian Europe" like the neo-Nazi's claim.
    This is SECULAR Europe, which means all religions should be treated equally.

    Also, sending death threats to an 84 year old Holocaust survivor is not the best way to win friends
    Nope, but neither is discriminating someone because of their religion, and he of all people should know.
    Last edited by Erik; July 04, 2007 at 04:45 PM.



  5. #5
    Bwaho's Avatar Puppeteer
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    I voted in favor of the Mosque, obviously.
    that's just because you hate germans

  6. #6
    Il-Principe's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    I fear that this is the future of Germany...and West Europe as a whole. In 30 years in our cities you'll see only huge mosques and minarets. And the people won't buy things any longer in supermarkets, but go to the large growing oriental bazaar.

  7. #7

    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    The Germans have every right to be repulsive of foreign culture. But still the behavior of a people reflects their value. I used to wish that the rest of the world would meet the high standard of European culture but meh I have changed my mind it seems Europe is gonna end up being the one meeting the relatively lower standard of the rest of the world in a downward movement.
    Last edited by jankren; July 04, 2007 at 08:03 PM.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    They have a right to reject it especially when one considers that Europe is far more secular then the middle east and a noticeably more then over here in the US. If anything rejecting such a building is fairly consistent with that belief (or rather non belief) regardless of attempts by right wingers to grab hold of it as an issue. Besides, I know its the 'right' thing to say well the west is suppose to be tolerant and open I still have problems when mosque can pop up all over the place like a McDonalds but yet Christians cant even openly worship in Saudi Arabia. Im more of the belief of mutual tolerance, when a church can be constructed in the heart of Islam Id be less opposed to these "giant mosques" being built in the west.

    Plus Id look at the funding, anytime "private donations" are mentioned it somehow always traces back to the Saudis and the royal family in some manner.
    Last edited by danzig; July 04, 2007 at 06:35 PM.

  9. #9
    Tajir's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    What happened to being secular?


  10. #10
    Elric von Rabenfels's Avatar The Devil Inside
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    Against the Mosque.

    And not because of religion, I'm agnostic-atheist
    But you don't see what happens here in Germany, we are getting overrun by Muslim immigrants, and such Mosques will give them even more the feeling that they have power here... what shouldn't be, but already is to a uncertain factor.

    Call me racist or anything, but I want Germany to be full of Germans, not of Turks and other Muslims.

    My personal problem is the acting of 80% of those immigrants, especially the younglings...

    Now go and let me suffer the HUDUD! (<--- reffering to a Medieval II comic )
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  11. #11
    Tajir's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    Are all White people racist?


  12. #12
    Condell's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Darkwing View Post
    Against the Mosque.

    And not because of religion, I'm agnostic-atheist
    But you don't see what happens here in Germany, we are getting overrun by Muslim immigrants, and such Mosques will give them even more the feeling that they have power here... what shouldn't be, but already is to a uncertain factor.

    Call me racist or anything, but I want Germany to be full of Germans, not of Turks and other Muslims.

    My personal problem is the acting of 80% of those immigrants, especially the younglings...

    Now go and let me suffer the HUDUD! (<--- reffering to a Medieval II comic )
    i know germany took some turks in years ago for work and turks did provide a good portion of your manpower for low level jobs like construction etc..

    but
    how come there is so many of them in germany now?
    are they coming in illegally? how come you guys couldnt control it?
    how did so many end up in your country that you are feeling overrun by immigrants?

  13. #13
    Kaweh's Avatar Aerani
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Darkwing View Post
    Against the Mosque.

    And not because of religion, I'm agnostic-atheist
    But you don't see what happens here in Germany, we are getting overrun by Muslim immigrants, and such Mosques will give them even more the feeling that they have power here... what shouldn't be, but already is to a uncertain factor.

    Call me racist or anything, but I want Germany to be full of Germans, not of Turks and other Muslims.

    My personal problem is the acting of 80% of those immigrants, especially the younglings...

    Now go and let me suffer the HUDUD! (<--- reffering to a Medieval II comic )
    I agree with most of what you said, but not with the part "I want Germany to be full of Germans"... You see, I don't mind where people come from, as long as they know how to behave, and the problem with thoose younglings you mentioned, is that they do not know how to behave, and often become criminals etc.

    I also don't have anything against mosques (well, apart of not liking organized religion at all...), but as Raven said, it is very symbolic, and might give the moslems the wrong image that they do not need to adept to the culture of the country they are living in.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they shall loose their cultural identity - but a little bit of understanding and adapting is indeed needed!

    I think the situation is a lot better in Austria than in Germany, though.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    I would be for it but it is clear that a large amount of Muslims in Germany are not treating the Germans kindly. The German government gives them everything they need when they come to Germany so why do they need more? If they treat people well they would deserve it but many dont treat the Germans well. If they Muslims get everything they want wouldnt demand Sharia law in mass as they have been doing tin Britain?

  15. #15

    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    This mosque sounds like a bad idea.

    First, why sound the Germans bend to the will of a bunch of immigrants, both legal and illegal. Second, they cannot even maintain the current one. I bet the new one if built will fall to shambles.



  16. #16

    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    Oh no, they're asking for a Mosque where they can pray! This is a catastrophe of epic proportions!
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  17. #17
    LSJ's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    What could the problem be with giving Muslims a mosque to pray in?
    If their current one is a crapshack why should anyone stop them from building a nice one that can accomodate all of the local followers?

    And how does building a larger mosque make Muslims own the place? There's thousands of huge churches and cathedrals across Germany. Hmmm... 1000s of churches and cathedrals vs 1 large mosque. OH NO! Its showing that they own the place now!
    Seriously, I think people like that are just xenophobics obsessed with cultural purity.

    If the Germans want to keep the nation a white christian nation then they should have closed their borders and only be accepting immigrants who pass their vision of an ideal German. If the Muslims are causing trouble then why are they allowed into Germany? You can't have open immigration and then dislike the cultures being brought into the country.

  18. #18

    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkProphet View Post
    What could the problem be with giving Muslims a mosque to pray in?
    If their current one is a crapshack why should anyone stop them from building a nice one that can accomodate all of the local followers?

    And how does building a larger mosque make Muslims own the place? There's thousands of huge churches and cathedrals across Germany. Hmmm... 1000s of churches and cathedrals vs 1 large mosque. OH NO! Its showing that they own the place now!
    Seriously, I think people like that are just xenophobics obsessed with cultural purity.

    If the Germans want to keep the nation a white christian nation then they should have closed their borders and only be accepting immigrants who pass their vision of an ideal German. If the Muslims are causing trouble then why are they allowed into Germany? You can't have open immigration and then dislike the cultures being brought into the country.
    Well maybe the liberals in charge didn't think about all of that. Or maybe its the Jewish elite pulling strings in the shadows...



  19. #19
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoner View Post
    Well maybe the liberals in charge didn't think about all of that. Or maybe its the Jewish elite pulling strings in the shadows...
    Wow posioner what ever filled you with so much hate?
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  20. #20
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: German mosque dispute

    What the hell people? Is anyone ignoring the bloody fact that Europe has private property? I don't give a damn if 99% of the country doesn't want it, you should be able to built anything you want on your own damn property; church, mosque, or convenient store.

    Erik

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