SV Economy System

[DaVinci]

Copy of my posts from another thread to start the theme:

... discussions and suggestions are always welcome, so no problem at all here

We'll see as a kind of "replacement" in SV for the paved roads, ie.:
- silk road
- eventually a incenses road (sp?)
- toll roads
- toll offices
- other are possible
(lol, telling secrets now)

... but as said, at least, i personally don't want to have paved roads, where they didn't exist.

...some day we have to create a plausible economy system, where ie. also trade resources will have a senseful reflection.
SV 2.1 will have first a light start in this area with some new buildings (infrastructure).
The tech-tree in the whole needs a lot work still.

One thing comes now to my mind: If somebody can research ie. also salt-roads would be a great help. I now for example that many northern german settlements grew big and rich due to salt (little example is Lüneburg).

I guess i'll open a new topic for that matter (soon).

So the base is in particular that the paved roads as possible construction will be removed, with the exception of the old Roman ways (as yet a route in Italy and in Greece) will be already on the starting map.

So let your researchment and ideas come

Also think of traits and ancillaries for this theme ... (merchants etc.)

[|Lorre|]

Wow, nice!

Here are some traits and ancillaries that came into my mind:

I will indicate in brackets which bonuses I think are better, of course they apply in different characters (a Merchant use + Commerce, a Leader + Finance and so on)

Ancillaries:

• Banker: This man has his personal banker, which may help him to administrate better his wealth! (+1 Finance)
• Letter of Credit (do this as an exchangeable title maybe) This man is an owner of a Letter of Credit, and could spend money without paying the whole amount immediately (you decide bonuses)
• Caravaner: A commercial caravan is at service of this Merchant, who has his goods always at hand! (+1 Commerce)
• Personal Guard: This merchant have hired some bodyguards to protect him from thieves or assassins (- chance of being killed or spied)
• Horse breeder: This man is accompained by a good horse breeder which provides him the best steeds in the country! (+ movement)

Traits:

• Sold a Relative: This man has sold one of his relatives as a slave for a large sum of money! You must expect him to be very clever and unforgiven at doing businesses... (+ Commerce)(+Finance)(+ Dread)(- Piety)
• Liberist: This ruler promotes liberism of commerce, which may lower introits from tolls, but it favours the developement of local commerciants (+ finance, -Tax collecting, + commerce from trades)
• Protetionist: This ruler thinks that the Head of the State must protect every commercial activity in our country! (+ finance, + tax collection, - commerce from trades)
• Merchantile Family: This man come from a long birthline of able merchants, and he has learned a lot of tricks to commerce better (+2 Finance)(+2 Commerce)
• Monopolyst: The merchant does like very much to detain all the introits possible among one sector of commerce... (+ Commerce
• Usurer:This man borrows money for a large amount of interests, no matter who is exploited (+ Commerce)(+ Finance)(- Piety)
• Bank Owner: This merchant has got his own bank, and he has developed a good sense of affairs! (+2 Commerce)
• Blackmailed: This man has a secret which he is going to defend paying someone to shut up his mouth... (- Finance)(lower introits from taxation.... something who demonstrates he is losing money)
• Greedy: This man likes money more than people: sooner or later his subjects will hate him, but your cash will grow... (+ tax collecting, + rebellion risk)
• Suspected of Corruption: This man is suspected of being paid to let things go worse, foreign agents must not use this at their advantage... (more % of being corrupted, - Loyalty, + rebellion risk)
• Corrupter: This man uses our money to makes things easier, this could be an advantage for us, or... (-rebellion risk, -finance -law)
• Full of debts: This man is famous for using money in the worst way... he has many debts to pay, and uses our money to do so! (- finance - trade -tax collection)
• Market Counters: This man has some counters in all crowded markets, and everybody knows him! (+ commerce, - chance of being acquired)
• Clever Acquirer: This man likes to be the first one in his sector, and will eagerly prevail over his concurrents! (+ finance, + chance of acquire other merchants)

I will add some others if they come into my mind.
Hope you liked those I posted... Of course change them as you wish...

[Konstantin Alexander]

As i didn´t know that before, i just wanted to mention, that salt was not only a sought after commodity because of being virtual the only mean to make preserved food and it´s use in the tanning process, but also in the production of glass and ceramics.


A few infos about the salt roads:

The "old" salt road. Also called via regia.

130 km long going from Lüneburg, where the salt was mined to Lübeck, where it was distributed on the northern german coast and even as far as Scandinavia and was mainly used to conserve Herring. Salted Herring (often called stick-Herring) as one of the few possible forms of preserved food shouldn´t be underestimated.
The early route was over Lauenburg, where there were ferries across the Elbe, then by carriage to Schwarzenbeck, Mölln and finally Lübeck. Later on a canal replaced the bad road from Lauenburg to the river Trave. (which flows to Lübeck.)

Later an alternative route existed, where the cargo was brought stream-upward to Bolzenburg, where the Schaale-canal (since 1430) was used to bring it to the Schaal lake that was close to another lake in the northwest, where it travelled by boat from Ratzeburg to Lübeck.

Another route from Lüneburg was going to Bolzenburg to the northeast across open country to Schwerin and then northwards to Wismar. But i do not know when that route was in use or how important it was in comparison to the direct northern route.

The German "brightroad" (Hellweg):

From Aachen to Goslar, although only the part between Duisburg and Paderborn could really be called salt road.

The saxon salt road:
From Halle to Prague.

The tyrolian salt road:
Leading from Hall (in Tyrol not the other one) to Lindau at the Bodensee. (No idea how you english people call that lake)

The bavarian salt road:

It´s mines where in the Salzburg region (no wonder, considering the name, eh?) and the most productive sites were Hallein, Bad Reichenhall and Schladming (west of Graz).


As time is running short for me i did no in-depth research for all salt roads except the first one. As soon as i have the spare time, i´m going to update the post for the other routes.

------------------------------------------

As a sidenote, though that is daydreaming at the moment:
Personally i would find it absolutely immersive to represent such settlement upgrades that essentially represent commercial networks and infrastructures on the campaign map, like CA did with the commodities like silver etc. If i´m not mistaken you already spoke about something similar with the small settlements represented on the campaign map in another thread.
Even more speculative would be to make those spots interactive, like the ports are. What i always missed in MTW2 is the option to make a chevauchee (or however it is spelled), that is a mounted deep range patrol to ravage the enemies fiefs, to plunder it´s resources, pillaging every food-depot and generally decrease the enemies credibility and political control by showing that he is unable to protect his belongings. A common and effective strategy in medieval times. Pitched battles were far more seldom.

I already tried to do this by spreading my armies in enemy territory in multiple small stacks, as the ground turn black, when an enemy stand at a spot for several turns. But this is completely ineffective. Interactive map-spots like a salt mine, for instance, that could be damaged (not completely destroyed) this way would motivate players to react to the typical AI habit of spreading small stacks everywhere and generally ingoring your borders, but i sense that this would require a huge amount of work. I just wanted to write it down, so that it doesn´t vanish in oblivion.

[DaVinci]

Thanks a lot, you both and keep it up.


Konstantin, your info about salt roads is great.
In ChivTW we've salt as resource and also i added mineral&metal mines as addition to the silver&gold mines, perhaps we'll adapt these to SV, as we anyway will use some Chiv material, the salt mine would be then the requirement to build a salt road.

What you refer to in the last part is probably, where i talked about the special map realised in a submod for RTR, in the meantime i remembered its name, it is the 'metro' mod. There are just added several (pseudo-)settlements on the map which gave trade and farm boni, and it looked nice and added flavor.
The TW engine though can't realise what you daydreamed about in regard of map-buildings, but the ideas are very good, and perhaps one can reflect something like that in the one or other manner (perhaps you know the game 'Knight of Honor', where such a system is realised )

Notes:
Herring is calling Hering (in german at least)
Schwarzenbeck is calling Schwarzenbek
Bolzenburg is calling Boizenburg
... i live in Hamburg and i know the described regions and towns pretty good (have been there), nice to see them in an international forum

I only would need still the timeframe(s), in which these salt roads were founded (and active used).

[notger]

The tyrolian salt road:
Leading from Hall (in Tyrol not the other one) to Lindau at the Bodensee. (No idea how you english people call that lake)

It is called Lake Constance.

With all this expertise floating around, here, I had the feeling I should add a little bit, too. ;-)
Impressive work, boys.

[Ermeni]

about the roman roads......here are some that where still in use during medieval times.....

Via Flaminia *** Rome - Rimini
Via Egnatia *** Dyrracium (spelling? - Constantinople
Via Appia *** Rome - Capua
Via Valeria of Sicily *** Messina - Syracusa

[Konstantin Alexander]

Darn. The map i had to use for the salt roads was so tiny, that i actually had to guess some of the letters. But actually herring is the english term for Hering. Don´t ask me why those englishmen always have to have their own way with such details. ( Metric system, boys! M e t r i c )

As an addition to Ermenis roads:

The Egnatia Odos came from Ragusa to Dyrrachion (Durazzo). This part was modestly maintened. (at least during the 12th and 13th century. I have no info about the later periods) Then it was leading a bit more inland (i guess due to the mountainous coast and swampy valleys of what is now west Albania) towards Lushnje (sry no idea how it was called then) Fier, Vlore, Kanina, Gjorm (dito) and entered Epiros through Gjirokaster and Lista. A bit further south, from modern maps i guess it was at Vrosina or Granitsa a branch lead down to the coast to what is nowadays Igoumenitsa. (On the strategic map it is around the region of the port, which makes sense as Igoumenitsa lies at the end of a deep and long natural beach. The other branch leading east lead to the second and third northwest-southeast mountains, the Tomaros range, through the Paramithia heights down to the valley of Ioannina, passing the old temple ruins of Dodona. (The modern Egnatia Odos avoids the small curve south through Paramithia as a highway can lead straight through tunnels under the Tomaros - an impressive sight, that is for sure) From the lake ioanninon another big roads leads south, following the basin of the Louros down to the end of the Balkans. The valley of Arta. It wasn´t called Egnatia Odos though, but i could not find out, how it was called. The Egnatia itself went east and entered (and still does, when those lazy guys are finally finsihed) via serpentines the Pindos mountain range. Many considered this the hardest part and even with cars it requires constant attention to this very day and you go up to 1950m, with snow and ice. The route goes north-east untill it reaches Kastoria and then further on to Florina, where it makes a slow curve in a northern direction untill it merges with the northern route. (historians still debate over which route was the more important one back then. The greeks vigorously advocate the southern route, while Albanians say it was the northern route passing the great lakes to the north, instead of south. For the purpose of this post i assume the southern one was mor important, not out of national pride, but because it passes more population centres and is close to the meteora monasteries, which were the second most important orthodox religious centre after the enclave at the Athos. They are beautiful as well, have a look here: http://www.greecetaxi.gr/Meteora/Meteora0.jpg ) From Florina it follows the passes to Edessa (one of the dozens of Edessas) and down again to macedonia superior. (Pella) From there it is only a short and easy travel to the lowlands and Saloniki (Thessalonica). It crosses the three finger peninsula in its narrowest part, makes a short curve north, because of the coastal mountains at the border to thrace and then follows the coast again to Kypsela. There another side route goes directly north to Adrianople. From here on i have few detailled infos, but it should have followed the coast directly to Byzantium. I see no geographical reason why it shouldn´t have.


I will continue my research for the salt routes.

[Ermeni]

tx konstantin

[Ermeni]

The route of Via Egnatia:

http://www.seecorridors.org/index.ph...27&w_l=2&w_c=1

[DaVinci]

The detail information is great

At best, it would be, if Konstantin (my proposal) could throw together the researchment, and provides a summery/list (one post/update per edit-button) for a first approach for the possible map changes and possible tech-tree additions, along the following points:

Roads for Map / Tech-Tree

A Old Roman Ways:
1. Via Appia - regions ..., ..., ... (entry active timeframe)
2. ... - regions ..., ... (...)
and so on

B Salt Roads:
-in the same manner-

C Silk Road:
-..same..-

D Incenses Road: (Spices)
...

E Main Caravan Ways:
...

F Main Pilgrim Ways (muslim and christian):
...

[Ermeni]

wow..caravan ways, pilgrim ways etc etc...that's a lot of great stuff....makes me looking forward to the next version even more.....

[DaVinci]

wow..caravan ways, pilgrim ways etc etc...that's a lot of great stuff....makes me looking forward to the next version even more.....

Well, but it is dev stuff for future versions ... some of the Roman Ways will be in 2.1. ( that's not so much modding work )

P.S. Hint for Konstantin, if he's willing to provide the above summery: you can get the whole map-view, if you change the SV preferences cfg file, there 'fog of war = 1 or on' (don't remember it now), change to '... = 0 or off'.
(... until somebody tells you how to use the shell command toggle of ...)

[Konstantin Alexander]

I will do this list, but will need a bit of time as i´m currently occupied.

[|Lorre|]

Well, but it is dev stuff for future versions ... some of the Roman Ways will be in 2.1. ( that's not so much modding work )

P.S. Hint for Konstantin, if he's willing to provide the above summery: you can get the whole map-view, if you change the SV preferences cfg file, there 'fog of war = 1 or on' (don't remember it now), change to '... = 0 or off'.
(... until somebody tells you how to use the shell command toggle of ...)

You can even do this from the console using command: "toggle_fow" (Maybe is "toggle_fow 1" I don't remember well)

[DaVinci]

You can even do this from the console using command: "toggle_fow" (Maybe is "toggle_fow 1" I don't remember well)

... i meant also toggle_fow, and not toggle of

@Konstantin, no problem, thanks a lot that you will do it

[DaVinci]

... once more hint for Konstantin: First focus is only the Roman old ways, all other can wait at the mo.

[|Lorre|]

I've updated the traits/ancillaries with a few newer.

[DaVinci]

I've updated the traits/ancillaries with a few newer.

Keep it up

Possible Trade Ancies:
... do we have already a slave trader? (muslim leaders or merchant)
... furs trader? (russian leader or merchant)
... salt trader? (north-middle european leader or merchant)
... spice trader? (muslim, italian, byz ...)
... silk trader? (byz, venezian ...
... horse trader or breeder
... leather ...
... iron, copper ...
... silver, gold ...
... grain ..
... wool ...

lol


... if all or some of those guys and traits are realised in future SV versions, we have to change/adjust the whole cash-flow, that we won't have to much income

[Cowwarlord]

Question: Will the Old Roman Ways have the speed of Paved Roads or will be the speed of Highways?

[DaVinci]

Question: Will the Old Roman Ways have the speed of Paved Roads or will be the speed of Highways?

... of paved roads (btw., the 'highways' in RTW are fantasy roads).