Apartheid - A Necessary Evil?

[The Super Pope]

Without Apartheid would South Africa be the wealthy and powerful state that it is?
Under apartheid the farms, mines, and industries remained in the hands of Whites who had owned them for generations, who know what they are doing and kept the state wealthy. SA was not torn by Civil War and was even able to influence other states wars. SA is the only country I can think of in Southern Africa which has free and fair elections.
By contrast, in Rhodesia, Mugabe took the farmland, some of the best in the world which had earned Rhodesia the name 'The Breadbasket of Africa', from the whites and gave it to his black followers who had no farming experience.
He turned a state considered wealthy by Western standards into the impoverished dictatorship of Zimbabwe

Therefore, did Apartheid prevent South Africa following this course and keep it wealthy and stable?

[removeduser_487563287433]

With this logic South Africa would have fallen into anarchy by now.

[Daovonnaex]

With this logic South Africa would have fallen into anarchy by now.

Something which borderline happened after Apartheid ended!

Apartheid preserved western institutions and allowed South Africa to retain first world status--for its white population only. While this first world status provided the black population with many benefits and they were better off than blacks on the rest of the Continent, they were still oppressed.

P.W. Botha's drive to completely end the "petty Apartheid" (economic Apartheid) while maintaining political apartheid was quite promising. In this, the idea was the blacks would achieve economic equality with whites over time while whites maintained their monopoly on political power.

Over time, this may have produced a western-oriented black population interested in maintaining capitalist institutions that could've governed responsibly. However, international pressure made this impossible, and all of Apartheid had to be rapidly dismantled.

The result has been that black people have had their living standards decline, white people are fleeing South Africa, and violent crime has reached shocking levels. People in South Africa who complain about violent crime are regularly accused of "whinging" and told to leave the country. Whose bright idea was it to host the next World Cup there?

[Chlodwig I.]

What about USA
they had 100 years slavery
and then need another 100 years to grant equal rights to the former slaves
but they are one of the richest countries.
A country will gain more in the end if every of its citizens has a good education, the same rights and the posibility to earn enough money to live, then a country with apartheid and a majority of its citizens living in poverty.


And comparing Zimbabwe and South Africa

South Africa was a racist regime where black people have been 2nd Class citizens but today after the end of aprtheid everyone is supposed to have equal rights.

Zimbabwe was a country whith equal rights but now a Black Racist Dictator made the people with european granparents leave the country and the people left have no rights at all.

[Kake]

What's a more plausbile cause to the high crime rate? Free elections or poverty and declining living conditions?

[Daovonnaex]

What's a more plausbile cause to the high crime rate? Free elections or poverty and declining living conditions?

What do you think is behind that new poverty and declining living conditions? It is of course the terrible economic policy that was adopted under Nelson Mandela! Things have begun to improve in South Africa in the past few years, but not dramatically.

[Kake]

A tricky situation indeed but I doubt the abolishment of apartheid is the sole reason to the decline. For example if the whites are fleeing the country, then all the capital is too. But I'm no expert on the South African case so..

[Daovonnaex]

A tricky situation indeed but I doubt the abolishment of apartheid is the sole reason to the decline. For example if the whites are fleeing the country, then all the capital is too. But I'm no expert on the South African case so..

Basically it's like this.

1. Apartheid ends
2. Jubilant blacks loot and attack white people (somewhat understandably)
3. Blacks vote in populist politicians whom proceed to wreck the economy
4. Whites flee the country to escape violence and populism

[Thanatos]

Hmm.... such a problem....

Which is more important, equality for human beings, or ensuring that everybody gets basic human rights?

[Daovonnaex]

Hmm.... such a problem....

Which is more important, equality for human beings, or ensuring that everybody gets basic human rights?

Human rights are more important. Equality is a dangerous concept.

Apartheid wasn't evil because only whites could vote, it was evil because black people were driven from their homes, beaten by security services, denied access to basic rights, and excluded by force from many segments of society. A political system is just a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Anyways, I think South Africa is rich because of its natural resources, not so much because of Apartheid.

A very large number of poor African countries are rich in natural resources.

[Erik]

SA is the only country I can think of in Southern Africa which has free and fair elections.

I'm pretty sure both Namibia and Botswana have free and fair elections too.
Lesotho and Mozambique don't seem too bad either, but I'm not really sure.

Anyways, I think South Africa is rich because of its natural resources, not so much because of Apartheid.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Apartheid was racially motivated - not because South Africans had a grand scheme to protect the country from destabilisation. Also non-apartheid does not mean that whites automatically lost wealth or property. The comparison to Zimbabwae is not relevent as they did not either until Mugabae illegally seized their land - a racial policy which can be compared to apartheid itself.

Although I conceed there are many points in favour of this thread.

[Daovonnaex]

Apartheid was racially motivated - not because South Africans had a grand scheme to protect the country from destabilisation. Also non-apartheid does not mean that whites automatically lost wealth or property. The comparison to Zimbabwae is not relevent as they did not either until Mugabae illegally seized their land - a racial policy which can be compared to apartheid itself.

Black Empowerment laws in South Africa have forced many whites to divest themselves of assets against their will.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Black Empowerment laws in South Africa have forced many whites to divest themselves of assets against their will.

Such as...

[Daovonnaex]

Such as...

Most major South African corporations. De Beers sold a 26% stake to a black economic empowerment firms. Many other companies have resorted to moving their operations out of South Africa--South African Breweries (now SAB Miller PLC) is now based in London.

Obviously it's anything close to as bad as Zimbabwe.

I guess some good can come out of anything, huh? Weren't there some medical breakthroughs that resulted from the experiments conducted by Nazis on the Jews?

Substantial breakthroughs were made in aviation medicine, and a nazi doctor (can't remember his name) who killed and tortured jews is considered the father of space medicine.

[morteduzionism]

Substantial breakthroughs were made in aviation medicine, and a nazi doctor (can't remember his name) who killed and tortured jews is considered the father of space medicine.

hmm, I don't know...it's just...hmmm...something tells me that just possibly, I know it's unlikely...but just maybe....there could have been a better way.

I know, I know quibbling over the insignificant details of the "tortured and killed" aspects of the...discoveries is very small of me. And someones god knows that the boom that space travel has provided the economy goes without question and who would argue that the gift of European civilization should not be welcomed in every corner of the world! I mean, the wisdom of legislating based on skin color: brilliant! Restricting segments of the population to the least productive land: Genius! It provided them with character and a work ethic, just what the colored people of the world needed: white people to tell them how to live and where they could live.

I'm sorry I'm just incapable of looking past the means to see the justification of the ends.

God Education and most important good Governance is needed in Africa.

I'm not disagreeing with you. It just seems like you, and many others, feel that Africa should be doing better. My question is, what nation can they use as a role model?

Are you suggesting these nations just forget colonialism?

I see it similar to modern day Iraq. You(not you personally) went into a country totally wrecked it. Its social institutions, customs, etc. For generations you totally disrespect and disfranchise the population, treat the people as 5th class citizens, deny education and access to other institutions.
Then, you say: new laws you're full citizens now and you can run your own country! And it's expected they're able to do it within 6 months!

It's one thing to expect an unprepared person to perform at the same level as someone who is well practiced in a craft. It is something else to have taken an active role in ensuring that the person is unprepared and then demanding them to perform to a certain level. I'm not going to suggest its unfair, fairness is irrelevant. It is however a good cause to use to encite violence.

[Gary88]

"Stabbing babies: a necessary evil?"
"dude, wtf are you on about?"
"i'm just asking because if we stabbed alot of babies things would be better"
"what, thats ****ing sick you cant just stab babies"
"well it seems sick but in the long run it would be better for all of us"
"how on earth?"
"well a recent survey showed that low income famillies drain alot of tax payers money when they have kids, stabbing, say, 1 in 10 babies would save us a great deal of money and make our nation richer"

...
did i make my point or did i go over the top?

[felicissimus]

The question is who is able ? If the blacks for some reason aren't,then why the hell do they have to receive rights ? To destroy ?!
I heard you walk somewhere in SA and a beggar black woman with a baby and a poster "donate.." comes to you begging .You stretch your hand to give some coins,she draws the poster back,stabs you with a knife and grabs your purse,while you come to yourself she runs away .And plenty of stories like that .If this is black democracy ,I dare say they must be exterminated .

[morteduzionism]

I guess some good can come out of anything, huh? Weren't there some medical breakthroughs that resulted from the experiments conducted by Nazis on the Jews?

[Chlodwig I.]

God Education and most important good Governance is needed in Africa.
just take a look at Botswana, good governance, good helthcare, content citizens