Comitatenses vs. Legionary Cohort

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Just a question for you to ponder: who would win a battle between these two. If my memory doesn't fail their stats are somehing like this:

Comitatenses

Attack 8
Defence 25
Missile 9
Charge 2

Missiles thrown before charge
Can Sap

(Late) Legionary Cohort

Attack 9
Defence 22
Missile 11 (?)
Charge ?

Missiles thrown before charge
Can Sap
Good Morale
Good Stamina (?)

Give your opinions. Some testing would also be welcome, but I don't know how to create a Comitatenses unit in RTW 1.5. Any advice would be welcome.

[Paul d]

you could give comistatenses stats to another similar unit(hastati,princepes,ect) and test it. doent need to be asthetically equal.


it does say they are not quite as good as the legions of caesars time...

[Kratos]

(Late) Legionary Cohort

Attack 9
Defence 22
Missile 11 (?)
Charge ?

Missiles thrown before charge
Can Sap
Good Morale
Good Stamina (?)

Don't forget the testudo formation. I have no idea who would win, though.

[Crusader Invasion]

I gave my Comitatenses testudo on BI. I'll post a pic if you want.

As for the query, historically Legionary cohort > Comitatenses. In the game, ???

EDIT: Woah, this post turned out weird, I don't know what I was trying to say here.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

You're welcome to post it .

Well, I would like to know in the game. Obviously Caesar's legions were superior historically, but even so it's a controversial debate among historians. Some do defend that the comitatenses were just as efficient being defensive as Caesar's legions were being offensive, but legionary cohorts get more glory because they conquered more. The same doesn't apply for the Comitatus, which was a defensive army primarly.

But I generally agree that Caesar's legions had more motivation to fight.

In-game, they're almost equals. Both Comitatenses and Legionary Cohorts have a good staying power and do absorb the brunt of a barbarian charge well. Mercenary Veteranii have attack 10 and defence 27, which might make them even superior to (recruit) late Legionary cohorts. I frequently hire them against tough enemies or to give me some decent infantry support when I'm a Nomad, the only problem being they're too expensive to hire and maintain.

I don't see how Testudo could be an advantage here. It's very useful when besieging stone walls or facing cavalry archers, but I never use it in ordinary combat situations. It could minimize damage from javelins, but then you would need time to put the legions in standard formation to face the comitatenses.

[Crusader Invasion]

^Here's the pic...

I originally posted this on the TW forums in the topic "Modding the testudo."

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Hmm... could you teach me how to do this myself? Seems great, and does not historically implausible at all.

Edit - OK, I'll look there.

[Crusader Invasion]

Hmm... could you teach me how to do this myself? Seems great, and does not historically implausible at all.

Edit - OK, I'll look there.

I can release a mod if you like.

P.S. I've also given my Hastati and Principes testudo, do you want that too?

[Hex Khan]

This shouldnt really be here, since your not seeking tactics, you're wanting a debate the two units... Lets put this in the General Discussion so you and your peers can deliberate

[Scutarii]

Well, if both units threw their javelins, and both got the charge bonus, I would have to say that the Legionaries look like (from the stats) that they would win due to the morale. They have good morale compared to the Comitatenses blank morale. Plus increased attack and missile. I think this makes up for the loss of defense.

[LuciusCato]

The Imperial Cohorts have higher morale though, they would probebly hack eath other to 15-20 men then the Comitatenses would run off

[Prince_of_Macedon]

Not sure. Those stats look pretty even. Are there more units in a Legionary Cohort or in a Comitatense? Or is it the same?

[Paul d]

same.

[_TubbZ_]

nah i don't think it would be close, note how the legion cohorts have "good morale" and "good stamina" and they are major factors when it comes down to close stats. The commi's will get tired first and also rout first so being an all for all battle it would end with the wimpy Commi's running for the hills in a tired sort of way....

[Death Merchant]

The early roman legions were meant to face diefferent opposition such as Gauls and Iberians and armies of Diochi states such as the selucid empire therfore more heavy slower troops meant to grind the enemy down with superior Morale and training the traditional tactic of Rome was to force a pitched battle and use its superior infanty to defeat the enemy

The Late legions were meant to face a completely different opposition such as light fast raiders and archers, 1st century legionnaires would be just to slow to catch lightly armed 'hit and run' raiders who do not engage in pitched battles the commies were faster and more menuverable allowing them to fight both pitched battles and counter hit and run tactics more easily the romans had by this time excellant cavalry which the romans of the first century did not have allowing them to use different tactics, making the late legions more versitile against a wide range of enemies

Who would win?, depends on the battle

one on one: first century legionnaires

1st century Army vs 5th century Army: Debatable, however 5th century army would have more versitility and a good general such as ceaser could utilise the cavalry advantage to destroy the early legionnairy cavalry and encircle the roman infantry before they had a chance to break the more lightly armed commies

[unfortunate crow]

off topic: Stainless Steel. The most useless steel for swords and armor...

[][Xyphos][ - Lee]

Historically did the Comitatenses use the testudo formation?

[Paul d]

I wouldn't know, in my campaign, I gave the Triarii phalanx formation. because it says they are modeled after greek hoplites, why not?

[Prince_of_Macedon]

I decided to pit Gaius the Roman vs Festus the Byzantine...

In the red toga and segmented armour, we've got Gaius the Roman!
In purple garments (plus some nice-looking pants) and the high-tech chainmail, we've got Festus the Byzantine!

Find out who wins!


As both soldiers approach each other, Gaius and Festus hurl their pilum/spiculum at each other. Gaius' pilum sticks right into Festus' oval shield. Festus' spiculum manages to do the same to Gaius' much bigger shield.

Both soldiers toss their shields away as they've become too heavy to carry. Let's see how both soldiers do without their shields!

Festus the Byzantine points his spatha sword and taunts Gaius: Where did you get that armor from? A museum or something?

Gaius replies: Very funny. You wished you had this armour at Adrianople! Now I will cut you down for the glory of Rome!

Festus retorts: Glory of Rome? Glory no longer exists! In fact, you shouldn't exist! Time to fix this anomoly!

Festus swings his longer spatha at Gaius' head. Gaius steps back to avoid the swing and quickly retaliates by thrusting his gladius forward but has misjudged the distance.

Festus swings his blade again, and manages to strike the chest of Gaius. Gaius falls down in pain, but luckily, his segmented armour minimizes the damage. Gaius gets back up, but Festus comes in quickly for another attack. Gaius steps into the wide-swing of Festus and delivers a quick stab at the Byzantine soldier's stomach. Festus falls down gripping his body. Gaius moves forward and executes the Byzantine.

Rome: 1
Byzantium: 0

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

I decided to pit Gaius the Roman vs Festus the Byzantine...

In the red toga and segmented armour, we've got Gaius the Roman!
In purple garments (plus some nice-looking pants) and the high-tech chainmail, we've got Festus the Byzantine!

Find out who wins!


As both soldiers approach each other, Gaius and Festus hurl their pilum/spiculum at each other. Gaius' pilum sticks right into Festus' oval shield. Festus' spiculum manages to do the same to Gaius' much bigger shield.

Both soldiers toss their shields away as they've become too heavy to carry. Let's see how both soldiers do without their shields!

Festus the Byzantine points his spatha sword and taunts Gaius: Where did you get that armor from? A museum or something?

Gaius replies: Very funny. You wished you had this armour at Adrianople! Now I will cut you down for the glory of Rome!

Festus retorts: Glory of Rome? Glory no longer exists! In fact, you shouldn't exist! Time to fix this anomoly!

Festus swings his longer spatha at Gaius' head. Gaius steps back to avoid the swing and quickly retaliates by thrusting his gladius forward but has misjudged the distance.

Festus swings his blade again, and manages to strike the chest of Gaius. Gaius falls down in pain, but luckily, his segmented armour minimizes the damage. Gaius gets back up, but Festus comes in quickly for another attack. Gaius steps into the wide-swing of Festus and delivers a quick stab at the Byzantine soldier's stomach. Festus falls down gripping his body. Gaius moves forward and executes the Byzantine.

Rome: 1
Byzantium: 0

he he +rep for creativity.